System Shock remake and System Shock 3

[673f51cc0f4d3rccc]

Dunno if it's already linked here, but this might be of interest: http://m.fastcompany.com/3053050/app-economy/how-one-company-is-bringing-old-video-games-back-from-the-dead

[673f51cc10565unn_atropos]

One example: Night Dive is developing a full remake of the original System Shock, going well beyond the basic rerelease that launched a couple months ago. Night Dive has acquired the full rights to the franchise, and Kick says he’s been working with Robert Waters, the game's original concept artist, to reimagine his designs from the early 1990s.

"Seeing the difference between his artistic abilities back then compared to now, and his ablity to reinterpret those ideas, it's just been really exciting for us," Kick says.

Part of the plan for this remake also includes a console version, which would be a first for Night Dive. Kuperman believes much of the company's future growth will come from creating console adaptations for more PC games, along with some ports for mobile devices.

We may even see a System Shock 3 someday, though Night Dive would need a larger publisher to take on the task. Kuperman says the company is "having some conversations" on this front. "To really do another game in that series is going to take resources and time and commitment that we don't have, and it's really not our core business," Kuperman says. (Until now, 2K Games’ Bioshock series has stood in as a spiritual successor.)

Well, I really don't know what to think about that. Why are they doing that? Can they do it?

[673f51cc10c93Join2]

Well, I really don't know what to think about that.

Why? Seems clear-cut to me:

"To really do another game in that series is going to take resources and time and commitment that we don't have, and it's really not our core business," Kuperman says

Kuperman believes much of the company's future growth will come from creating console adaptations for more PC games, along with some ports for mobile devices

Their core business, is business. Money. It is obvious they don't care about what SS stood for.
Sadly, if they did want to take this series to the next level the PC gaming audience and industry standards would probably just run them into the ground anyway, much like what happened to LGS as a result of System Shock 1 & 2.

[673f51cc10ebbSynaesthesia]

That sounds absolutely fantastic. If it keeps with the original look and feel of the game (SS1 remake) but updates it for today's gaming standards, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[673f51cc11052CFW Magic]

I'm EXTREMELY skeptical about this. The reason for that is the word "console". Part of what made systemshock so intensely amazing was it's complexity, especially for the early 90's. That game still has more gameplay elements than most games today. I wouldn't mind seeing a fully functional railgun, but if it means we're going to lose things like mantling, a varied ammo/damage/defense system or an inventory, then I want no piece of this, and I don't want these guys anywhere near the rights to SS.

Time will tell I guess, but, call me nihilist, I'm very disillusioned with today's gaming standards to rest assured that SS is in good hands.

[673f51cc113f9Marvin]

As long as JosiahJack can keep working on his reconstruction, I don't care. The chance of actually remaking System Shock for consoles of all things while being faithful to the original are next to nil, so I don't bother.

[673f51cc119d9unn_atropos]

Why? Seems clear-cut to me:

Their core business, is business. Money. It is obvious they don't care about what SS stood for.
Sadly, if they did want to take this series to the next level the PC gaming audience and industry standards would probably just run them into the ground anyway, much like what happened to LGS as a result of System Shock 1 & 2.

That's my point. They say that they don't have the resources (and skill, I dare to add) to make a System Shock 3; a game that would would have to meet

today's gaming standards

So how could they expect to make a System Shock remake that consoleros consider worth buying? What gain is there compared to the enchanced edition with its mouselook and easier controls?
---
Terri and Eric Brosius seem to be on board as well:
https://twitter.com/Dandastur/status/664247423997493248

[673f51cc11df7CFW Magic]

So how could they expect to make a System Shock remake that consoleros consider worth buying? What gain is there compared to the enchanced edition with its mouselook and easier controls?

I'm tempted to say they'll throw in lots of bloom, SSAO and unremovable acceleration. (Thanks for the ideas, BioShock)

Then again, maybe they'll mix and match a few ideas from either SS games. Seeing a system like modules in SS1 could be fun, as it would force the players to explore even more. Though even without those, SS exploration is way more rewarding than most games by today standards ...

No matter how I try to approach it, the only thing I can understand by "today's gaming standards" is a downgrade to what there already is ... Unless it's going to be a purely eye-candy update ...

Yeah, maybe they'll make orientation on the station easier ... "We thought that it was a pain in the ass for the players to have to figure out where to go and how to achieve their objective themselves, so we removed some of the routes and we attached a navigation arrow! You can now complete your objectives in a single way, and we'll make sure you know exactly how to do that at all times! Ain't that dandy!"

[673f51cc1213dKolya]

As long as JosiahJack can keep working on his reconstruction, I don't care. The chance of actually remaking System Shock for consoles of all things while being faithful to the original are next to nil, so I don't bother.

They will probably make Josiah an offer he can't refuse.

[673f51cc123e8Marvin]

They will probably make Josiah an offer he can't refuse.

Or maybe just let him work for a while before altering the deal.

[673f51cc125ddicemann]

The downside to this is that projects like Josiah's & hank morgan's are very likely to get cease and desist letters eventually as a result.

Time to get a move on before that day comes :p.

[673f51cc126e7Marvin]

Not sure, the fan backlash would be huge. And System Shock fans are the only reason those rights don't lie in some insurance companies vault anymore.

[673f51cc129b4Olfred]

They can still go on to something like you need the original SS1 files to start/use Josiahs remake.
I think by now they should know not to piss communites off.

[673f51cc12aa4Marvin]

That's a must anyway and I'm fairly sure JJ is already planning for that. The new SSP does the same thing and it seems to be fine.

[673f51cc12c96TidalWaves]

I saw it here http://www.pcgamesn.com/system-shock-enhanced-edition/system-shock-3-is-a-real-possibility-now-night-dive-studios-have-the-license basically the same spiel.

I'd love a new system shock -or hell even a re-master. I also am a bit iffy on the "console" part. While it would be cool to see it on a console as a PC player, I have to say that half the fun of SS2 was remembering all the keybindings -hahaha-  and sadly, no matter how many buttons a controller had you won't be able to set all the important or useful keybindings. Would it be cool to see full controller support on a new SS game? Yes, but is it necessary? Not really no. i'd be content to play by the god old standby of mouse and keyboard.

It's at least good to know that if this reaches fruition, that we have Terri playing SHODAN and Eric on music design. 

[673f51cc13023ZylonBane]

...and sadly, no matter how many buttons a controller had you won't be able to set all the important or useful keybindings.

95% of what you do in System Shock is move, shoot, and use. Assign a couple of face buttons to email and inventory management, make a radial menu for toggling your hardware, and you're good to go.

[673f51cc131e5Join2]

No dumbing down or significant change of functionality (such as horrible radial menus) would be necessary, but that probably won't stop them.

Here is a modern mainstream AAA console game that uses a cursor for UI navigation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AITlg7OBxRw

Doesn't Destiny currently hold the record for the game with the biggest budget? That's how viable cursor navigation is, and always has been since analog control (plenty console games have done it in the past).

As for shortcuts for hardware toggling without using the cursor, the better real-time alternative is to use the d-pad. Left = Previous hardware, Right  = Next Hardware, Up = Toggle currently selected hardware on/off, down = disable all currently active hardware. As there is only a few hardware options this would be very quick, and without drawing a stupid time-pausing window in front of the player blocking view.  It does take three more dedicated buttons, but System Shock doesn't demand many buttons anyway.

[673f51cc13505ZylonBane]

As for shortcuts for hardware toggling without using the cursor, the better real-time alternative is to use the d-pad. Left = Previous hardware, Right  = Next Hardware, Up = Toggle currently selected hardware on/off.

Riiiight, forced cyling is so much better than direct access. 

[673f51cc13801Join2]

Riiiight, forced cyling is so much better than direct access. 

Yes, depending on context it usually is.

Radial menu:

1. Press (usually hold, so a delay) menu button.
2. Move analog stick in the desired direction of your hardware.
3. Press button to toggle hardware.
4. Release/press menu button again.

Typically this draws a massive window in front of the player and pauses time.

Cycling:

1. Press prev or next selection the desired number of times. Can be done very rapidly.
2. Press button to toggle hardware.

All done real time, without the stupid window, It is like the toolbelt in Deus Ex (more like the one in Invisible War specifically).

Since SS only has a small handful of hardware (emails & inventory would be a face button/some other button as you suggest), cycling would be very viable. So many games (not all, sometimes it is necessary) these days have radial menus when it is not necessary to do so.

[673f51cc1398aZylonBane]

You're making dumb assumptions about any theoretical radial menu. There is nothing inherent about radial menus that requires them to either pause the game or obscure the screen. They can just as easily not pause the game, and be laid out so they leave the primary field of view clear. They're faster to operate too, which is, y'know, why developers use them.

Radial menu: Summon, flick, release. Done.

Cycling menu: Is this it? Is this it? Oh crap, that last one was it. Is this it? Is this it? Is this it? Is this it? Okay this one is it. Click. Oh fuck something killed me while I was distracted by this horrible awkward interface.

[673f51cc13b52Join2]

You're making dumb assumptions about any theoretical radial menu.

Reading comprehension? Notice the frequent use of the word "typically".
I was being overly biased on the subject though. The example I gave above for radial menus is the industry standard, but indeed it doesn't have to be that way.

y'know, why developers use them.

Yes, because everything developers do is always the right choice. 
They aren't inherently faster. Like I said, it depends on the context/design and what the game demands.

Cycling menu: Is this it? Is this it? Oh crap, that last one was it. Is this it? Is this it? Is this it? Is this it? Okay this one is it. Click. Oh fuck something killed me while I was distracted by this horrible awkward interface.

No. Again, SS has a small selection of hardware, as standard they would be distinguishable by icons, and you unlock them over time, one at a time, so the player will learn the positions and icons very easily even without some other form of assistance.

[673f51cc13df7Kolya]

Radial menu: Summon, flick flick flick flick. Is this it? Is this it? Looks vaguely like the gun I need... Release. Oh crap, that last one was it. Summon, flick flick flick. Okay this one is it. Release. Done. Oh fuck something killed me while I was distracted by this horrible awkward interface.

Fixed that for you. 

[673f51cc14174ZylonBane]

They aren't inherently faster.

Target acquisition time using a radial (aka direct selection) menu is constant. Acquisition time using a cycling menu is variable, and requires the user to maintain awareness of the UI's state. Therefore a cycling menu imposes both a greater physical and mental burden to use. These are facts, not subject to debate.

The only time cycling selection is preferable to direct selection is when there are only two, maybe three, available choices.

[673f51cc14470Join2]

These are facts, not subject to debate.

Wrong. The industry standard example I gave would be slower because of the intitial onHold delay, and then the subsequent required actions. So it is variable for radial menus too, depending on the design as well as the player's ability to memorize the positions/required directions. Also the rendering time of the window too. depending on how fancy it is etc.

"The only time cycling selection is preferable to direct selection is when there are only two, maybe three, available choices."

I would say it is preferable for up to 10 choices.

Also, nd here's the big one for LG games: radial menu overrides mouse/analog control for the selection, so you lose the ability to look and do just about everything else whilst selecting, even if real time.