System Shock remake and System Shock 3

[674074996658dTachikoma]

I think they forgot Doug Church.

[67407499668a5Zanderat]

It is amazing to me.  We finally get SS3 in development by what is essentially LGS and people still feel the need to complain and act all cynical.  I honestly don't get it unless you are just trying (and not succeeding) to be cool or something.

[6740749966a9cKolya]

I once thought we were getting SS3 by Ken Levine...seemed like the right person to make it after all. I'm neither overly excited nor cynical now. Cautiously optimistic though.

[6740749966c34voodoo47]

I'm just going to say what I've already said - SS3 has got the best possible start it could have had received. as for the rest - all we can do, is wait.

[6740749966fd8System Shocked]

Warren Spector's experience and him being added to the Dev team can only be a positive factor and gives some added foundation credibility to the project. At the very least, it should attract the interest of other serious and talented individuals, young and old, that want to show their wares and to learn from a gaming master and to make an impression upon him. I'm sure that Mr. Spector has/will contact individuals that have already made an impression upon him, from working with them in the past, and bring their talents into SS3's design/development.   

Given that the SS3 development project has just recently begun, I'm guessing that SS3's release is about 2-3 years away, dependent on if the goal is to create an AA or an AAA title, which it deserves based on its long term impact upon the PC gaming industry.

Comparatively speaking, SS2 was released on August 11, 1999, soon to be 16 years ago. Half-Life 2 was released on November 16, 2004. with the most recent addition to the storyline, Half-Life 2 Episode 2, being released on October 10, 2007. In the interim, there's been nothing - only leaks and unsubstantiated rumors. No doubt that development on HL3 has been ongoing, at the pace of a snail with sliding handicap crutches, partially due to VALVe's working environment - employee desks are on wheels so that they can move them to whatever development project that they are interested in. 

Yeah, VALVe delayed HL3's release because they realized that their recent new-fangled Source engine had run out of 'whoooose . . . sssssss. . . sTeAm', and that it was no longer up to the visual and technical capabilities of current/modern game engines. But I think the true crux is that VALVe wants to release HL3 in conjunction with the release of their new soon-to-be-introduced VR (virtual reality) gaming system - a FREE copy of HL3 (and/or other VR updated popular VALVe titles - namely, THE VR BOX) all updated with the purchase of their new VR system. VR gaming options are going to explode within the next 2 years. I hope that VALVe haven't missed the boat. If they have, it's their fault for neglecting their HL3 supporters.

Nevertheless, given VALVe's employee personal freedom choices on which project they prefer to work on at any given moment/time, what are the chances that HL3 gets released at about the same time as SS3? That would truly be gaming NIRVANA, and a moment in gaming history for all of us to experience first hand!

[6740749967194fox]

Half Life was very much a straight up FPS, a genre that lost a lot of its thunder - much like pc gaming itself. I'm pretty sure that Gabe Newell himself mentioned something to that effect years ago when asked about the reason for the lack of a new HL game. I think it was mainly a case of "stopping at the top of your game and remain a legend"-kind of thing, at least until some real Wow-effect can be achieved again. In 2016 PC gaming seems to pick up some, um, steam again.

[6740749967ba3unn_atropos]

Nevertheless, given VALVe's employee personal freedom choices on which project they prefer to work on at any given moment/time, what are the chances that HL3 gets released at about the same time as SS3? That would truly be gaming NIRVANA, and a moment in gaming history for all of us to experience first hand!

While it is of course awesome to get System Shock 3 and I would be very happy to have Half Life 3, your scenario of releasing them both at the same time is something I actually dread. I want Sys3 to have a lot of echo in the gaming media, high sales and reckognition. Having HL3 coming out (Gordon on the closet world of Xen?^^) at the same time would overshadow Sys3 immensly. Hl1 did so 16 years ago and back then it came out even one year prior to Sys2. Sys1 suffered through the success of Doom back in 1994.

Luckily a Half life 3 in the next three years is rather unlikely. I'm not up to date with potential new game hits to come out in the next few years, but I hope there is nothing else to steal the show from System Shock 3.

[6740749967d4eTachikoma]

Looks like the guy really love walking simulators and hate violence in games as well. And how he hate Lolipop Chainsaw, he said it shouldn't exist at all. I think Deus Ex was the last good thing he worked on (don't forget that he was involved in Invisible War). I'm not saying he will ruin SS3, however I have mixed feelings and so I'm skeptical.

Besides, I don't think he contributed a lot to the series unlike Dough Church. I'm actually surprised they didn't contact him instead. Since Night Dive is there, maybe they're reading this thread too and will try to get him.

[6740749967ff0Producer_chris]

Selling Warren short is kind of silly. The guy has a string of hits and a track record better than most in the game industry going back almost 30 years. Saying he wasn't involved as much as Doug in SS is crazy talk. It just doesn't work that way in a LGS type company. The producer, designer, eng exc all have massive input. Trust me, been working with these guys for years, a person's title doesn't really matter in this environment.

I do love this storyline about how old game designers lose their mojo. Seems to me the ones still doing interesting stuff is not old or young, but smart and talented. Ken Rolston did Oblivion in his 50's for example. Did he lose a step? No, that is arguably his best work ever. The beauty about having a very veteran core is gasp--we have all done it before. So many mistakes learned over years. The what if's and what could have beens are still fresh in our heads. We do remember feature 332 that we didn't get to do in Thief. Or the missteps made in the Shock games. Those are not armchair experiences for us, that is personal history. That is just as much a memory for us as our kids being born or our wedding. I haven't talked to Warren about Shock yet, but I bet he has a laundry list of stuff he disliked about any number of his games, and ideas on how to address them.

As for Epic Mickey--it's flawed, but if there is a console game out there that has the DNA of Looking Glass--it's that game. All the tenets of player agency and whatnot are in there. Why did he do that project? My guess is he loves cartoons--his first game was Toon after all. Love it or hate it, if Disney walks up with a big check, let you do the game your way, hell they redesigned Mickey for it, you take the chance. It's not like it was a failure, it just wasn't 'hardcore'.

[6740749968652RocketMan]

Tensions are high with anticipation and uncertainty demands that we resurrect some of our fears and doubts but I think the majority of us are very happy to have Warren on the team and think he will only add to the success of this game.  Please look past any negativity, as it is only a natural human impulse to focus on the negative.  Let's face it.  There's a lot of trash out there.  Some of the less impressive works were sequels to awesome games.  It's not easy to live up the high standards you have set for yourselves when making a sequel.  BUT, I think this dev team has what it takes to pull it off.  We're just a little nervous because this game is 22 years old and our assholes have been puckered for a verrry long time waiting for this moment. 

[6740749968d40Marvin]

Ken Rolston did Oblivion in his 50's for example. Did he lose a step? No, that is arguably his best work ever.

Arguably? Are you shitting me? Oblivion was by a very, very large margin the worst Elder Scrolls game to date. Even people introduced to the series through Oblivion think Skyrim's much better, and they have nothing else to compare to. Otherwise, there's no contest, one reason begin that Ken Rolston was actually much more involved with Morrowind than with it's comparatively much larger successor.

[674074996934bJoin2]

Yeah, Spector while he has had some mishaps in the past (not Epic Mickey as some seem to think, but Invisible War) is still an industry veteran and legend. His strong opinions in recent years on violence & "men in armor" may seem incompatible with the System Shock experience, but one opinion doesn't define a man entirely. Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Deus Ex define him more than such opinions, and Spector: they are some of the damn finest games ever created. Please don't let any meta philosophy influence too greatly how a game should be designed, even if it can result in very elaborate player-authored experiences like Deus Ex where you don't have to blow the brains out of cyborgs should you choose.

Arguably? Are you shitting me? Oblivion was by a very, very large margin the worst Elder Scrolls game to date. Even people introduced to the series through Oblivion think Skyrim's much better, and they have nothing else to compare to. Otherwise, there's no contest, one reason begin that Ken Rolston was actually much more involved with Morrowind than with it's comparatively much larger successor.

For me Morrowind > Oblivion > Skyrim. I didn't like Oblivion very much, but it still felt as though it had more soul and honor (honor to not overly compromise) than Skyrim, which was a game I strongly disliked. 
Ultimately I'm only a fan of Morrowind, which was far from perfect yet still a magical experience.

[67407499694c2Kolya]

I loved Morrowind because it was the first of this type of game for me. Back then someone (TF?) said: In the end Morrowind has no soul.
And I noticed he was right. It was just a bunch of stuff happening more or less arbitrarily. The only really interesting thing was the story I spun for myself about my character, her motivations, friendships, goals. None of that was in the game. But it still made for a good projection screen. So I enjoyed myself.
I skipped on Oblivion. Later I tried Skyrim but I couldn't spend the time anymore to make it an interesting experience for myself. 

[6740749969880System Shocked]

. . . We're just a little nervous because this game is 22 years old and our assholes have been puckered for a verrry long time waiting for this moment.

Yeah, but as a result of repeatedly puckering our assholes on and off, we've all saved a ton of money on toilet paper !

Ironically, the money that we've saved is more than enough to buy SS3 and any potential, dare I say, DLC releases.

[6740749969a34System Shocked]

Not knowing Warren Specter's age/health, this may be his last opportunity of being involved in such a storied, recognizable, and highly significant title and its LONG overdue release. Here's hoping that he wants to punctuate the later portion of his career as being involved in developing such a familiar and historically important title. It could be quite the swan song for him.

[6740749969d16Zanderat]

Not knowing Warren Specter's age/health, this may be his last opportunity of being involved in such a storied, recognizable, and highly significant title and its LONG overdue release. Here's hoping that he wants to punctuate the later portion of his career as being involved in developing such a familiar and historically important title. It could be quite the swan song for him.

He is only sixty. DOB is 10/02/1955.

[6740749969fd4System Shocked]

He is only sixty. DOB is 10/02/1955.

Seems highly likely that he would be around for the possible release of SS4, and maybe even for SS5.

[674074996a34aRocketMan]

Not knowing Warren Specter's age/health, this may be his last opportunity of being involved in such a storied, recognizable, and highly significant title and its LONG overdue release. Here's hoping that he wants to punctuate the later portion of his career as being involved in developing such a familiar and historically important title. It could be quite the swan song for him.

Jesus H Christ man!  Have you got his plot and headstone picked out yet?  Better get on that.

[674074996a615Dizzy]

He is only sixty. DOB is 10/02/1955.

Yeah 60 isn't too old to be a game dev.

There are plenty of over-60 game devs that are still killing it.   d-(^_^)z 

I am on the Spector Hype Train   ALLLLL ABOOAAAARD!!! CHOO CHOOOO

[674074996aacdTachikoma]

Arguably? Are you shitting me? Oblivion was by a very, very large margin the worst Elder Scrolls game to date. Even people introduced to the series through Oblivion think Skyrim's much better, and they have nothing else to compare to. Otherwise, there's no contest, one reason begin that Ken Rolston was actually much more involved with Morrowind than with it's comparatively much larger successor.

This. Or let's remember even better examples such as Rage, Daikatana, Duke Nukem Forever (perhaps Bioshock too, I mean SS2 was still great and Levine worked on this game) or ton of others games which had talented people (industry veterans) who worked on those and in the end those projects were a huge disappointment. Problem is, people tend to change and sometimes it can't be good in video games development. Was Specter like that before? I doubt it, after all he directed Deus Ex and assisted on System Shock. However, can someone's opinion influence games? Absolutely and we have no idea if Specter is one of this kind of developers, only he knows. I hope he won't try to force some kind of agenda or won't make SS3 walking simulator with no violence (imagine System Shock 3 being Gone Home). Though I like that he wants to find other people who worked on the series right now. Almost forgot to mention that age of developers for me doesn't really matter. Actually, before I didn't know anything about Specter I was pretty excited because he created Deus Ex after all. I'm just worried for now and after ton of disappointments it's difficult to stay optimistic. Though lack of Levine makes me more happier and hopeful.

Anyway, since they have Specter, they have to get director of the first game as well and it's Church who, by the way, didn't leave industry for college. Can't find negative things about him as well. More chances that if they have both Specter and Church just like old times, the game will be much better, maybe at least on the level of the first game if not better. Besides, don't you guys seriously want to see creator of System Shock on the board? I believe Church is the last important guy whom they don't have on the project yet.

[674074996adacJDoran]

Sorry to climb onto the already packed What-went-wrong-with-Deus-Ex-Invisible-War bandwagon, but I have no idea at all how that manged to end up so un-Deus Ex-like. I mean, Deus Ex comes out, gains a lot of fans who are very vocal about what they like about it, and when the sequel comes out, it's ditched so much of what made the original so good. The skill points? Gone. The way you're very amateur with a certain weapon type, and can't aim well at all until you upgrade that weapon skill? Gone. The feeling of immersion by having realistic locations (in so far as the game engine can manage)? Gone. Being able to search bodies (which adds to the immersion)? Gone. Interesting characters and plots? Largely gone.

And for some gameplay-defying reason, they merged the lock-picks and multi-tools, added infinite ammunition, made hacking into an aug, and thought we'd all prefer an engine that gave us realistic shadows rather than large levels and the ability to swim.

Seriously, how did the Invisible War game design, which abandoned so many facets that made the original game so great, manage to get the go ahead? Anyone could have told them that it would not appeal to most Deus Ex fans.

The irony is, Invisible War isn't a bad game. It's not great either, but it's a lot better than people who play it expecting another Deus Ex judge it to be. But as a sequel to one of the all-time-greats, it's a massively misjudged disappointment.

[674074996b2e3Join2]

Sorry to climb onto the already packed What-went-wrong-with-Deus-Ex-Invisible-War bandwagon, but I have no idea at all how that manged to end up so un-Deus Ex-like.

It's called a conflict of interests: business and art. It really shows. The Immersive Sim was unjustifiably under-performing on the PC market compared to the likes of other big names. Post-release of Deus Ex, LGS folded. Likely spooked, Ion Storm must have perceived they had no choice but to try a different approach. I don't blame them for that, although I strongly disagree with the approach that they took.
 

[674074996b7d6fox]

Seriously, how did the Invisible War game design, which abandoned so many facets that made the original game so great, manage to get the go ahead? Anyone could have told them that it would not appeal to most Deus Ex fans.

This is what Warren Spector and Harvey Smith themselves had to say about it in 2007:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=don-oWbjq3E&feature=youtu.be&t=5274

It would be very interesting to hear their 2016-views on it. Harvey Smith probably developed his opinions quite some more after Blacksite. Dishonored felt like a very deliberate attempt at redemption to me.

Spector and Pacotti said this in 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awZ2njHrV5o

[674074996b9e1XKILLJOY98]

System Shock 3 has been announced, and is being developed by Otherside. There is also a remake of the original System Shock being developed by Nightdive Studios. What are everyone's thoughts on this? Personally I don't see why you are all so worried, complexity isn't the only thing that made the system shock games great, and I don't see how a console release
automatically means it is going to be streamlined. I also think some people need to calm down, they (both companies) said that they will be true to the original(s). Saying that they won't is an assumption, and after viewing some of Nightdive's previous work, it is very likely that they are being honest. There is even some of the same people who worked on the first two working in 3 and the remake as well. I'm sure that it will have a lot of the same features as the first two.

Also another thing, a game doesn't need to be complex to be good.