SSR System Shock Remake Feedback Request - Night Dive Studios

[674092777afd0Kolya]

That's still unclear. Do you mean they attack in similar ways? Like charging or shooting?

[674092777b328Learonys]

That's still unclear. Do you mean they attack in similar ways? Like charging or shooting?

Errr... Many weapons, including the enemies' weapons are hitscan. Yes, they need some time to charge and they can be stunned before they shoot but if you took most of the enemies next to each other, you could say they are all basically the same, except that they deal more damage, have more health etc. What i would like to see is more diversity. I liked the invisible mutants because they required a different approach to kill. Now i would like to see this in more than just one enemy, where you need different tactics to kill them, and not just only by the kind of armour values that they have.

[674092777b4bdfox]

There shouldn't be any new enemies in a remake. That would be a pretty definite step away from the original.

[674092777b595Kolya]

They could use different attacks though.

[674092777b683fox]

Give them good AI and the fights will automatically become less predictable. I don't think you need to give them more special abilities, just better tactics for what they originally had at their disposal.

[674092777b987zoog]

We are re-recording all the voice over with professional voice actors

VO in T/T2/SS/SS2 was great and pro-radio-announcerlike VO in modern games (often) sucks imho. Maybe i just don't get theatricality.

I really don't see why this is such a strong requirement for people.

I just dismay when, say, Office 2014 with almost the same functionality costs in HW 50 times greater than Office 2k. Let 10x in visuals cost 100x in HW, not 1000x.

[674092777be7dMarvin]

VO in T/T2/SS/SS2 was great and pro-radio-announcerlike VO in modern games (often) sucks imho. Maybe i just don't get theatricality.

What? SS1 VO was done by LG staff, with expectedly terrible results (back then full VO was an incredible feature of course). Terri Brosius as Shodan is the one and only exception, and the distortion effects carry some of the more subpar excerpts.

[674092777c27fJDoran]

There isn't much I can add to what other people have said here. But I'd like to say that I agree that this remake should build on the original game, not a 1:1 copy with better graphics. We already have System Shock: Enhanced Edition if we want to play the base game, so a remake should add to the gameplay and game mechanics, and improve and add to the level layouts.

Hello Nyarlathotep and best wishes in your work.
I just want to try to encourage you to not listen too much to fans or try to please everyone - look what have become to gaming industry with such kind of attitude. Multiplayer, eww. Do it the hard way)
And yet - the more LGS people you get engaged the much, MUCH better. That's what i'd dream of.

Eh? Surely they SHOULD listen to the fans. It's not listening to the fans that produces rubbish such as the Thief reboot. They should listen to the hardcore fans, as they are the people who understand best what they like the most about the game and what they'd love to see emphasised in a remake/reboot.

[674092777c676RocketMan]

But as you can see that comes with its own share of complications.  I consider myself a hardcore fan and I'm "somewhat" in the minority as I think SS1 is better than SS2.  I love cyberspace just the way it is but other supposed diehards say it sucked.  What's a developer to do with conflicting information like that from 2 seemingly reliable sources?

I think you need to listen to fans for sure.  However when everybody starts fighting over the same details and you can't get a consensus, just leave it up  to the developers.  We're lucky because we've got the same old people making the new game as did the old one so they're as good a crew as any.  I figure, if they were able to produce a game that everybody liked, at a time when there was zero reference to go off of, then they can use their own judgment and do it again.  They made something... we liked it (as a whole) so they're doing something right.  Let they stay in that zone.

[674092777c9bfZylonBane]

SS1 VO was done by LG staff, with expectedly terrible results

You are full of wrong. I've heard truly terrible voice acting in video games, and SS1 doesn't even come close to the bottom of the barrel. The actors, for the most part, sound like exactly what they're supposed to be-- someone recording a message into a microphone.

I'd consider re-recording SS1's logs to be a waste of money. If they go the Kickstarter route, it should be a stretch goal at best.

[674092777cb98Hikari]

My hope for the System Shock Remake is they're working on the system shock remake to kick the tires on the engine, shake out bugs with the team and work process, and then immediately get going on system shock 3.

[674092777cd7bvoodoo47]

a good chunk of questions has already been answered you know.

as far as the logs are concerned, I'm ok with them being redone - while it's very true that the origs are exactly what they realistically would be (regular people recording their voice), you should also realize that when doing a game/radio show/movie/whatever, you actually don't want realistic voices, you want voices that sound good when recorded (and replayed). and just as most people aren't too pretty, most voices don't sound too great when recorded. hence, (dedicated) voiceactors.

[674092777d097Marvin]

You are full of wrong. I've heard truly terrible voice acting in video games, and SS1 doesn't even come close to the bottom of the barrel. The actors, for the most part, sound like exactly what they're supposed to be-- someone recording a message into a microphone.

Well, you're full of yourself, as usual (I said terrible, btw, not "the worst"), and apparently you haven't noticed that dragging your employees in front of a microphone doesn't cut it anymore. Deus Ex was already laughed at for its rather embarrassing VO 15 years ago, even tiny indie productions have been relying on professional actors for a long time now - see Braid, Bastion, or Dust. The simple fact that SS2 was leagues ahead of SS1 in this regard should tell you everything.

[674092777d553ZylonBane]

while it's very true that the origs are exactly what they realistically would be (regular people recording their voice), you should also realize that when doing a game/radio show/movie/whatever, you actually don't want realistic voices, you want voices that sound good when recorded (and replayed).

I think I'd rather have an amateur voice actor than someone who is obviously ACTING. The latter can sound really fake and take you out of the game. There's a bit of an uncanny voice acting valley here, where you can get good results from amateurs at one end or real pros at the other, but an awful middle ground of overacting and "announcer voice".

The simple fact that SS2 was leagues ahead of SS1 in this regard should tell you everything.

Irrational may have brought in some outside talent for SS2's voice acting (including Stephen Russell), but most of it was still performed by in-house staff. Just look at the SS2 voiceover credits some time-- Ken Levine, Eric Brosius, Josh Randall, Alexx Kay, Randy Smith, Mike Swiderek, Dan Thron, Ian Vogel, Nate Wells, and more... those are all Looking Glass/Irrational guys.

[674092777d85fOlfred]

The real problem with the SS1 voice overs are that some sound like the just read it from a paper, not like they are having a free speech.
If someone is shocked, scared or should potray any kind of emotion, a monotonous voice isn't the best suited.

So I'm all for new recordings.

[674092777d95evoodoo47]

yes, but there is no denying that SS2 logs are much more pleasing to the ear.

[674092777db0fMyagi]

If log texts are remaining the same then it should be easy to add a game option to use old or new log recordings, making everyone happy.

[674092777dc5cfox]

I agree that audio logs should sound like they were recorded by ordinary people but overacting is much more common when done by amateurs. It's a telltale sign of good voice actors that they are aware of the nuances needed. I'm actually ok with the quality displayed in SS1 but Irrational definitely upped the ante in that department, not only with SS2. They made sound and voice acting a priority and it showed - even in the translations.

[674092777df98unn_atropos]

Most of my point were brought up already (level editor, easy modding, old and new voice actors*, gameplay stuff) so:
- physical release with an awesome box
- fully voiced versions for other languages; german and french at least
- no DRM
- stretch goal: System Shock 1 had 3D glasses support, so should the remake (never tried any of these devices, so I don't really care. But it would be fun^^)
- implement System Shock 1 into the minigames, so that you can play Wing 0 in System Shock 1 in the remake of System Shock 1 (maybe you could set a record with that many layers)
- I'm not a programmer but what I liked in the dev chat some time ago is how they talked how they achieved some effects in the game, particularly the shaking screen after emp explosions. It would be nice if you could come up with some sneaky, clever stuff like this. In my opinion it just makes games and the history nehind them a bit more charming and interesting.
.
.
.
- working sensual sim units


*Why not give the old voice actors a second try?

[674092777e237Rainalkar]

SS1 was just before my time, but it is nonetheless Shock. You have my full support and I will be looking forward to how things develop.

[674092777e474zoog]

Surely they SHOULD listen to the fans. It's not listening to the fans that produces rubbish such as the Thief reboot.

Fans are consumers, developers are artists.  You don't suppose that as in SU every cook should manage the state (communists' slogan), are you?

[674092777e6dbvoodoo47]

if you are (re)making something that relies heavily on fan support, then having a look at what the fans have to say is definitely a good idea - hence, this topic (and the upcoming kickstarter). or (as already mentioned) you can end up with a travesty that was Thief2014, a game where "developers and artists" were allowed to forget that they are not supposed to be making A thief game, but THE thief game. we all know where that went.

let me quote something from the steam forum (it's from the "what do you want out of SS3" topic, but very, very applicable to the SS1 remake, and a potential SS2 remake as well);

To not be an embarrassment to the franchise like the Thief reboot was. After SS3 comes out, I want to be able to tell someone that System Shock is one of my favorite games, and NOT have them say, "What are you talking about? That game sucked" and then have to grimace and say, "No, not THAT System Shock."

//remembered two more things I would like to see (or, in case of the second one, not see);

manual saves
- autosaves/checkpoints are fine, but let us save the game manually where we want, and when we want as well. I need to be able to quicksave and terminate the game quickly when I see my boss coming.

keep any potential console UI/controls simplifications out of the pc version
- while I understand that the UI and controls may have to be reworked further to allow proper control on consoles, any such modifications should be exclusive to the console version (having one key perform many different actions based upon how hard you press it and on what it is currently pointed at is beyond awful, yes, I'm looking at you Fallout4). I'm aware this is extra work, but it's work well worth it.

[674092777eaa1dertseha]

Hello Nyarlathotep and thank you for your posts!

Two things from my side:

Source Code (of original SS1)
Great stuff! This would be a treasure trove for legacy information. Though, if it legally doesn't work out to release it publicly, the important information in the code is the definition of all the data in the resource files (for tools/mods). My current project is to document these files and at least I would be willing to sign some NDA for the source to just extract that information (and make that public).

Music
It's already been mentioned before I believe, having horizontal sequencing AND vertical orchestration of music like in SS1 is something I haven't heard in a while. I understand that this puts more pressure on the composer though - one can dream

[674092778008bpripyatbeast]

My respect for you actually planning to create something with the IP you got. I mean that.

Thank you! We want new Shock games just as much as anyone and it feels good knowing the future of the franchise is in the hands of the original developers.

Alternatively you could diverge from the original. You could try to introduce some clever new mechanics through the backdoor. Like being able to switch between the real world and cyberspace any time and cyberspace is this digital mesh version of reality. Nobody really liked cyberspace as it were. So there's room to improve.
 
This is a really good idea - we have some thoughts concerning cyberspace but hadn't considered this possibility.

with the small exception of the hw requirements (intel gpu people are numerous, and I'm not sure whether ignoring them completely is such a good idea), I quite like what I see so far.

We definitely won't be ignoring them, integrated graphics will be supported. It will take more work on our end to ensure compatibility and it definitely won't be the ideal experience, but the game will run.

While it might be interesting to see Citadel remade with realistic modern AAA standards, I see two issues. One is that the amount of work seems out of scope. If there were budget and manpower to do that, they might as well have done SS3 themselves.

When we first considered the project we came to the same crossroad and ultimately decided to hand the project over to Paul Neurath and OtherSide Entertainment. Many of the original devs are part of his team and I couldn't think of a finer or more appropriate group of people to bring their vision of SS3 to life. As far as scope goes I disagree, with SS1 we've been given the blue print to a solid foundation. We've all played the game and have identified the flaws and weaknesses that made the experience inaccessible to users in 94 and people who play the game today. By rebuilding the game from scratch and addressing these issues we believe we'll be able to deliver an amazing experience that will be both faithful and innovative. It's certainly a tall order but no where near as demanding as building an entirely original game.

Based on that I actually liked the approach of those released remake screenshots/mockups. Keeping the abstract and original mood, with some touchup. I'm not sure how much of those shots are actual shots and how much of them is photoshopped. To keep abstract feel I'd like to see the game look exactly (to the pixel) like those screenshots (DOF and bloom effects aside, I expect those to be configurable so I'm not talking about that).

I'm happy to say that those are all straight screen shots from the engine - no photo shopping here. All the post processing effects will be adjustable. We know a lot of people don't care for blur, aberration, etc...personally I like the look 

Pretty sure he means an in-game document you discover, likely in the first room, that acts as an on demand tutorial, and implemented with simulation in mind to some degree (hence "Tri-op employee manual"). Not certain though.

The plan is to have a printed version of the TriOptimum Employee handbook accompanying the Big Box CE as well as a .pdf version bundled with the game.

Story-wise, i would love to see a stretch goal where a "what-if-mode" would be introduced. This would be unlocked after completing the canonical ending. You could play as different people, and different scenario's would be played. What if Bianca Schuler would have arrested Edward Diego on time? You could play as her, gathering evidence, and depending on how well you do you could have different outcomes.

This is a really cool idea we're discussing but would most likely come after the release of the game as an expansion pack. Same idea as Half-Life: Opposing Force and Blue Shift.

Enemies in SS1 were honestly quite generic. Most of them looked the same. I would like to see certain enemies made more unique.

This is a design element we're going to stress. For instance expect to see variants on enemy types, for the Mutants there will be both male and female versions mutated to various degrees. Maybe some "experiments" were left in the over a bit longer than others?

manual saves
- autosaves/checkpoints are fine, but let us save the game manually where we want, and when we want as well. I need to be able to quicksave and terminate the game quickly when I see my boss coming.

keep any potential console UI/controls simplifications out of the pc version
- while I understand that the UI and controls may have to be reworked further to allow proper control on consoles, any such modifications should be exclusive to the console version (having one key perform many different actions based upon how hard you press it and on what it is currently pointed at is beyond awful, yes, I'm looking at you Fallout4). I'm aware this is extra work, but it's work well worth it.

Manual saving would be my preference as well - However, I have seen some good arguments for checkpoint saves merely as a tool to build tension and fear. What did you think about Alien: Isolation? Do you think it would have been as good if you could save at any moment? Maybe manual saving is a feature available in the first two difficulty levels but not the hardest level? Thoughts?

We're working very hard on the UI, in all honesty it's probably going to be the most challenging part of development - rest assured we're avoiding anything that even remotely resembles Fallout 4's "UI" - yikes.