SSR System Shock Remake Feedback Request - Night Dive Studios

[6740d8973ef75JosiahJack]

I've found the animated wall textures and pallete cycling run at 0.35 seconds/frame.  So maybe 10 * 36 milliseconds.  Perhaps 36milliseconds is a base tick time for the game loop?

[6740d8973f129ZylonBane]

Not all palette loops cycle at the same rate. Some run much slower/faster than others.

[6740d8973f7a2Learonys]

I asked the above questions to not only save time but also generate conversation.

For example, is the offense/defense system preferable to just a flat critical chance? With a flat critical chance it can be easily displayed in an item tooltip. With the critical varying per enemy it will always be a bit too complicated for UI display.

Allright. Here goes.

About display: (assuming that we are both talking about exactly the same critical hit mechanics) It sounds a bit excessive to display a stat such as critical hits on the HUD, especially if it's a simple Yes or No, but I could see where pro-display people could come from if it was a flat chance, like 62% or 4% or whatever. To please both the pro- and anti-display party, make it toggleable on your Target Identifier (which would be a nice way to add more value to different and overall versions of this hardware). The anti people get the nice and clean interface they want, the pro people get all the details they desire.

About changing the mechanics of critical hits: Unless you guys are planning to add a competitive multiplayer scene to System Shock, something as non-influential as critical hits don't even need to be added to the remaster. I'm sure you guys could easily get away with not re-implementing this as most people that played the game didn't even know this existed, as it did not often happen. The people that know about this mechanic's existance, has thoroughly read the ICE-breaker or visit this site and have therefore most likely stumbled upon a post or topic that mentions this.

TL;DR: Make it whatever way you would like it, it does not sound like a mechanic that requires a lot of work to be implemented, but it's not a mechanic that should have a lot of work put into it. It's not important enough imo.

[6740d8973faf5RocketMan]

Well I first learned about it when I shot something and it said "Critical Hit".  I thought that was pretty cool. 

[6740d8973fd27Learonys]

Well I first learned about it when I shot something and it said "Critical Hit".  I thought that was pretty cool.

Really? Am i really that oblivious? Where did you notice that?

[6740d8973fe21JosiahJack]

The target identifier hardware has the added bones of telling you if you did damage and if so how severe: Ineffective, Minor Damage, Normal Damage, Severe Damage, Critical Hit.

[6740d89740219dertseha]

Not all palette loops cycle at the same rate. Some run much slower/faster than others.

That is right.

Still, JosiahJack is on a good hunch there. Because the times of these cycles, which I figured out by counting frames of a video, are multiples of 36 with nice round numbers (or close to them).

Here's the list of timings I wrote down, together with the factors:

Code: [Select]

0x03 - 0x07: Changed every ~1200 msec  -- starting with the odd-job, 33 * 36 = 1188
0x0B - 0x0F: Changed every ~700 msec -- 20 * 36 = 720
0x10 - 0x14: Changed every ~360 msec -- 10 * 36 = 360
0x15 - 0x17: Changed every ~1800 msec -- 50 * 36 = 1800
0x18 - 0x1A: Changed every ~1430 msec -- 40 * 36 = 1440
0x1B - 0x1F: Changed every ~1080 msec -- 30 * 36 = 1080
So, this could be a very lucky coincidence then.

And, to make things more spooky: About that division by 1.5 that Matty noted: The 08h timer interrupt I mentioned, which was typically used to generate a uniform measurement of timing in DOS games, has a default rate of 55msec. I wrote that you could change that timing, though I believe to remember the default handler would also increase the system clock, expecting to be called every 55 milliseconds. So, you wouldn't want to change its timing or your system clock would be wrong after a while. Now, assuming it's used in SS at 55msec, how many of these 36msec game ticks are in there? Just about 1.5 .

Some very funny coincidences here. (A few more of these theories and I have Half-Life 3 confirmed )

Matty, does this fit together at any rate?

[6740d897404d2Learonys]

The target identifier hardware has the added bones of telling you if you did damage and if so how severe: Ineffective, Minor Damage, Normal Damage, Severe Damage, Critical Hit.

Well damn, lol. I actually remember that now, it must've been so long since i last saw that and i played the game twice a month ago. But don't forget about major damage and stun 

[6740d897405b9RocketMan]

That's what makes ss great.  Its the little details that make me smile xD

[6740d89740a1fMatty]

That is right.

Still, JosiahJack is on a good hunch there. Because the times of these cycles, which I figured out by counting frames of a video, are multiples of 36 with nice round numbers (or close to them).

Here's the list of timings I wrote down, together with the factors:

Code: [Select]

0x03 - 0x07: Changed every ~1200 msec  -- starting with the odd-job, 33 * 36 = 1188
0x0B - 0x0F: Changed every ~700 msec -- 20 * 36 = 720
0x10 - 0x14: Changed every ~360 msec -- 10 * 36 = 360
0x15 - 0x17: Changed every ~1800 msec -- 50 * 36 = 1800
0x18 - 0x1A: Changed every ~1430 msec -- 40 * 36 = 1440
0x1B - 0x1F: Changed every ~1080 msec -- 30 * 36 = 1080
So, this could be a very lucky coincidence then.

And, to make things more spooky: About that division by 1.5 that Matty noted: The 08h timer interrupt I mentioned, which was typically used to generate a uniform measurement of timing in DOS games, has a default rate of 55msec. I wrote that you could change that timing, though I believe to remember the default handler would also increase the system clock, expecting to be called every 55 milliseconds. So, you wouldn't want to change its timing or your system clock would be wrong after a while. Now, assuming it's used in SS at 55msec, how many of these 36msec game ticks are in there? Just about 1.5 .

Some very funny coincidences here. (A few more of these theories and I have Half-Life 3 confirmed )

Matty, does this fit together at any rate?

Haha, I'd like to get it figured out too. Let me do a more thorough pass on the source code this weekend and I'll get back to you.

[6740d89740b5fRocketMan]

Ding ding ding!!!

[6740d89740cf7Hikari]

Well that instantly made my week feel a lot less shitty, knowing the source had been rediscovered.

I want to know how, where it was hiding, what you had to do to make it so you can poke at it on modern hardware.

If you're able to naively recompile it/edit it to make things we have done un-needed within a windows environment.

[6740d89740e21JosiahJack]

Posting this here to see how close I am to the source code later.  I've only timed some of them:
Berserk Patch effect time: 15.5s
Detox Patch: 60s
Genius Patch: 35s
Medipatch: 35s
Reflex Patch: 155s
Staminup Patch: 60s
Sight Patch: ??
Sight Patch Side Effect: ??

//TODO: Are these balanced well?  Maybe tweak a bit to add slightly more berserk time.

[6740d89740f8evoodoo47]

well, the first post was pretty clear about the code existing, and also the intention of releasing it later - lets hope nothing has changed in that regard.

but yeah, it'd be nice to know the story as well.

[6740d897410ccHikari]

Well I wasn't sure if first post menat they had it, were in negociation for it, or what. Nice to know for a definate the source is in thier posesion and they are legally unentangled enough so they can actually use it internaly if nothing else.

Just as a thing. If the source were to see a public release, how hard would it be to:
Make a cross platform implementation that can use either PC or Mac asset files
Be extended to use OpenGL
Build a level editor
Make the game able to use other assets

IE 'things Doom can do.'

[6740d89741442JosiahJack]

IE 'things Doom can do.'

I prefer things Quake can do, full 3d, fast, fun, and all that.  Mod/mappimg community around Quake is booming too.  But that's just me.

[6740d897416eeJosiahJack]

Not all palette loops cycle at the same rate. Some run much slower/faster than others.

Yes, my animated texture script allows for adjustment to the frame interval. 

Incidentally, so does my light flickering script, albeit based on custumizable arrays of intervals, with each having a corresponding array of booleans for whether that interval should lerp the light intensity values.

@Matty, I have been making each element as customizable as I can, with the idea of future moddability.  How are you all handling moddability?

[6740d89741887Hikari]

That moment when you realize System Shock has slopes and room over room and you could do a conversion of DIsruptor (PS1 fps with ULTRA cheesey live action cutscenes between levels) over.

But yea a source port of system shock would be.... Well. If nothing else, assuming the money's there, that might be a good/quick/dirty way to keep things going.

Though I do have to wonder, if extensive engine porting was done (IE true remapping controls and a less cludgey HUD along with OpenGL rendering and all) would that go under another version of System Shock, or would it be an update to Enhanced Edition for those that bought it?

Edit: Just out of curiosity, does Nightdive own the Mac assets for Shock? I mean i would assume so since it's the same game, but always good to ask, because yea, being able to use the higher resolution mac assets would be pretty sweet.

[6740d897419b6voodoo47]

my assumption would be that doing a full source port would be too costly/time consuming, hence the use of shlink to get a playable product out in reasonable time for reasonable costs. then the source code can be released, and a free community port is pretty much guaranteed. once released, it can be incorporated into the steam/GOG build.

[6740d89741b01Hikari]

Sounds like a reasonable guess. They probably releases System Shock for the press value more than actual value (though releasing it at all was great given how often the shock franchis had been at the top of GoG's wishlist.) Source port would definately have me buying since I've heard as is the enhanced edition is BETtER... but still more than a bit clunky, and shock2's interface makes me feel kinda spoiled.

[6740d89741c6fvoodoo47]

the new controls bring EE close to the SS2 control scheme, and being able to tweak resolution and few other things is nice, but there is only so much a custom loader can do. think DDFix vs NewDark.

anyway, I have a better question (seeing that NightDive people are still around) - any information about the SS1 source code release that could be shared?

[6740d89741d9dMatty]

@JosiahJack: "moddability" - Haven't even gotten to that point yet, but there have been discussions about it.
@Hikari: "does Nightdive own the Mac assets for Shock" - Yes.
@voodoo47: "source code" - Unfortunately, you know as much as I do at this point.

As for source code analysis, I didn't have much time as I thought I would, but I have looked at it and will continue doing so.

[6740d89741e92Hikari]

Request: When the source code is released so the community and internet at large is able to rip everything to shreds and rebuild it, any chance at selling the mac asset files publicly?

[6740d89742041Hikari]

Just as a request after seeing a lot of Doom footage:

While that sort of gameplay is cathartic and amazing, it reflects a character that is innately powerful, and I'd rather not feel uber powerful under normal situations in System Shock. Maybe for like the easiest mode you come off as this uber-powerful augment, but normally? System Shock is a haunted house where you are the intruder and the house does not want you there.

That said some weapons with more constrained weapon or energy requirements should sorta evoke that feel, IE very very tempting to just use it until you don't have it anymore and then your'e screwed when you need that kind of power.

I trust you especially given you're asking about original weapon timings, but given how the kickstarter will roll i"m sure a lot of people will bleat that they want Hacker to feel ultra powerful as a cyborg God to draw the doom crowd in. That would be a mistake, System Shock is not doom, never has been, and would be shitty to try making it doom-like outside of when you dial combat down to nothing.