The Importance of Prone, Leaning & Crouching, and a suggestion for NightDive.

[6740d0815d406voodoo47]

urgh, one key doing different things depending on how it's pressed, I had enough of that in Fallout4, so no, thank you very much. whoever thinks this can be pulled off without screwing up occasionally should go play it. very high on the list of frustrating things I don't want to deal with, ever again.

the level of (FO4 control scheme) bad and wrong is almost artistic - thankfully, it's already been confirmed that no such stupidity will be implemented in the Shock remake(s).

[6740d0815d7f3Join2]

"urgh, one key doing different things depending on how it's pressed, I had enough of that in Fallout4, so no, thank you very much."

Context? Just because it may or may not have been bad in Fallout 4 doesn't mean...argh, you old dogs are impossible to train.

Prone is a natural extension of crouch, so again, its highly intuitive and streamlined being merged with it. All those other benefits I mentioned, such as it fitting into the WASD area without taking any space? Yeah, they're of very high importance. you'd be a fool to see no value in the system.

Ah, I missed this:

Sorry, but leaning, useless in System Shock? have you ever fired a single hit-scan weapon in system shock 1? You can hover over holes, look at the other side of walls with leaning as if you're a squid with a gun-mounted camera on each arm. Remember that NPCs have aimbots that will only target a player's torso (or anything else in the "middle" of the body).

Also, don't forget, hitting the side of an arm by just a pixel is good enough to deal full damage.
Sorry for my intrusiveness, but leaning was definitely not useless. And don't talk System Shock 2 because we're talking about System Shock 1's remaster here.

Nobody said it was entirely useless, just less useful than prone. Anyway, good to hear it confirmed that you are indeed harder to hit if leaning around a corner. Just strafing half your body out from cover will have nearly the same effect, but the superiority of lean in this regard does indeed matter.

[6740d0815db7cvoodoo47]

Context?

if you hear a player shouting "noo, I didn't want to throw a grenade, I wanted to sprint" every odd LP video, then you know you have messed up.

[6740d0815dcd6Join2]

Ah yes, I heard about that some time back. That does sound dumb. Merging grenade and sprint is very unintuitive. You rarely hear about it negatively for anything else in any other game though, and there are plenty games that take this approach and do it well

Edit: Hmm, internet says its merged with melee, which doesn't sound as bad, but still not good because one is close ranged attack, the other a ball of potential suicide at any time, but especially so in close quarters. Still, a mistake would ultimately be on the player, yet grenade is definitely something you want a dedicated key for if you can help it.

[6740d0815ddcdvoodoo47]

pretty sure merging any other functions would not be any less dumb.

there is only one case when I wanted to do this - AVP classic, setting up my controls so my marine would shout when shooting.

[6740d0815e04aJoin2]

pretty sure merging any other functions would not be any less dumb.

You're mistaken. Shooting, for one, is multi-functional in every shooting game. Press = fire. Hold = full auto fire (or in some games, charge shot). The key is it is intuitive (or more common knowledge in this case) and closely related to its other function.

Anyhow, if you want to streamline controls and keep prone, this is the way to go. Modern military shooter players will welcome it with open arms, and they make up the largest demographic in the potential audience.

[6740d0815e1aeZylonBane]

I do hope you're capable of realizing that just because two functions on the same button are intuitively paired, the probability of accidentally invoking one instead of the other is exactly the same as if they weren't.

[6740d0815e31cJoin2]

Sure. The probability is extremely low on average (based on player) though, although it does depend on the length of the delay, and such mistakes are entirely the fault of the player, just as pressing the wrong key is. My experience with the games that use this system, mistakes were few and far between. To do so accidentally (holding down a key longer than you should) is not a common occurrence, especially when it becomes muscle memory. The intuition is more for learning what function does what faster in muscle memory, and the more you use something the more it becomes second nature.

C'mon, Call o' Fucking Duty uses the system, it's got to be accessible, intuitive, fool-proof stuff. Plus so many inputs break you out of it so you don't get "stuck" in prone when first getting your hands on the game. Jump, sprint, crouch all change stance from prone iirc (they wouldn't have any other use in this stance anyway).

[6740d0815e437WhyNottt]

I think prone should stay, but I dislike the hold-to-activate idea. I find it really frustrating in modern shooters that have it, since I always end up activaying it by accident a lot and then getting super annoyed.

The reason why I think prone should stay is because its one of those quirky heavily-situtional features like being able to set grenade interval timer that really define SS1 to me and really build the feeling of emergent gameplay

[6740d0815e7beRocketMan]

If they do end up coding prone into the game I don't know why they can't just leave it unassigned, or maybe map it to some obscure button.  That way, people who hate prone never have to use it because it isn't part of their familiar keybind setup.  People who want it can re-map their keys and put it on whichever one they want.

[6740d0815e9bdJoin2]

There probably won't be prone anyway, because:

1. Extra animations are required for each weapon model for actions such as crawling from prone. Although I am under the assumption that crawling animations are usually done using the engine and can be applied globally to weapons, only melee would need new attack animations in their animset, or hand animations for crawling if no weapon is in hand (although that could probably just be left out).
2. Enemy AI that are melee-based, what do they do when you crawl into a crawlspace? Do they a) attempt to crawl in after you (preferable), or b) run away/break line of sight by hiding? Same for enemies that shoot. They too need to take into consideration the player hiding in crawlspaces, although that would be easier to do. What happens in Shock 1 in these situations? Don't recall. In Deus Ex if you're hiding in a vent and an NPC has a melee weapon, they run around in circles like idiots waving their weapon in the air. Since immersion, realism & polish is given greater weight by the industry at large these days, this shit won't fly today.

A lot of work, and if the devs have a perspective even slightly close to some in this thread then you Shock butchers have got your wish.

[6740d0815eabbZylonBane]

That's our drama queen.

Have I mentioned that having a freaking slider for your energy weapon shot strength is pretty pointless too?

[6740d0815ed9aJoin2]

That's our drama queen.

Defender of Shock and good game design, more like.

Have I mentioned that having a freaking slider for your energy weapon shot strength is pretty pointless too?

Shall we split off to another thread? 

I don't think it's entirely pointless, but pretty pointless, perhaps. You can conserve ammo by adjusting it to a particular enemy health pool, or setting it low for taking out cameras, yet because ammo isn't exactly scarce and death is not that consequential (!), strategy on this level is not really needed and you may as well have it set to max at all times. Still, it takes someone using their brain to figure that out and that's part of the fun in a small way, and again, this is something that should probably be improved instead of removed.

[6740d0815ef31hemebond]

Press the crouch button to move left through the positions, press the jump button to move right through the positions.

Code: [Select]

prone <-> crouch <-> stand <-> jumpThat said, prone can just be a contextual action (trying to crouch-walk into a crawl-space) if required at all; which I don't believe it is.

[6740d0815f23afox]

Press the crouch button to move left through the positions, press the jump button to move right through the positions.

Code: [Select]

prone <-> crouch <-> stand <-> jumpThat said, prone can just be a contextual action (trying to crouch-walk into a crawl-space) if required at all; which I don't believe it is.

Edit: Ok, duh... I get it. Thought at first you want to use the jump-key for cycling through the stances in a loop which would make no sense at all. However, if my avatar is in prone position and I press jump, I usually will be in a situation where I want to skip the crouched position entirely.

[6740d0815f6a6Join2]

Press the crouch button to move left through the positions, press the jump button to move right through the positions.

Code: [Select]

prone <-> crouch <-> stand <-> jumpThat said, prone can just be a contextual action (trying to crouch-walk into a crawl-space) if required at all; which I don't believe it is.

Your suggestion of contextual, location-specific proning defeats the point in so many ways. It shouldn't need to be explained why. Your suggested stance system ain't too bad though.

I can think of some negatives:

-Throwing jump into the mix may result in unintentional bunnyhopping. You cycle through stages each press and overshooting a stage of stance, while it also would be on the player, would be far more common unless there's an icon that shows your current stance in the HUD like in some games. OnHold delay on the other hand is exceptionally safe (holding down keys requires intent for the most part), contrary to the belief of some. We want it to be safe, because going prone at the wrong time could be punishing.
-It will certainly result in unintentional proning. People have it ingrained in their heads from industry standard that crouch = crouch, and crouch (whilst crouching) = stand. A lot of people will end up going prone by pressing crouch intending to stand via years of muscle memory. Not really a fault of the system itself but industry standards, much like people will freak out if you go with anything other than WASD (and don't allow rebinding).

Go with the damn Call of Duty system. It's simple, highly intuitive & fool proof.

It's also funny to note that if there is no prone then Call of Duty will have a higher degree of simulated human movement control than System Shock, as it has both lean and prone...well, ignoring we can't interact with hardly anything in the environment in CoD anyway.

By the way, number of times I pressed the wrong key whilst typing this post = 2. Number of times I unintentionally held a key down to trigger the hold function = 0. It's very safe.

[6740d0815ffe6hemebond]

Your suggestion of contextual, location-specific proning defeats the point in so many ways. It shouldn't need to be explained why.

Since you seem to be the only person who wants to spend their time lying around on the floor, how about you have a go at an explanation.

-Throwing jump into the mix may result in unintentional bunnyhopping.

Yes, much safer to accidentally lie down in the middle of the floor and crawl around slowly.

Call of Duty will have a higher degree of simulated human movement control than System Shock

Just how much time do you plan to spend crawling around in the grass sniping people on Citadel Station?

I also want to note that running/sprinting would take the player to the standing position, whether crouched or prone.

[6740d08160390Olfred]

I have to admit, I'm a Prony and like if I can do it in videogames.

Now about the control systems.
The one proposed by Join Uss!! is really just counter intuitive. Sure it works, many things work. But is it intuitive? I wouldn't say it does. A single button should only have a maximum of two function (per environment, of course). This one would make it have three.
A two button system where one is for going up another one is for going down is way more intuitive as it correlates more to human motion and thinking. And we still have just one button, because you just use the jump for up.
You could still incorporate a mechanic with a hold down the down button to go straight from standing up to prone so you don't have to press the button again and have a shorter delay of movements.

On top of this you could still add the crouch toggle & hold and prone buttons as option in the controls to anyone who prefers it this way.
About leaning, even though I tend to don't utilise it that much, I like it when a video game does have it. What's the best most suited way of implemention would be, largely depens on the whole weapon control/aiming system.

[6740d08160515Join2]

The one proposed by Join Uss!! is really just counter intuitive. Sure it works, many things work. But is it intuitive? I wouldn't say it does. A single button should only have a maximum of two function (per environment, of course). This one would make it have three.
A two button system where one is for going up another one is for going down is way more intuitive as it correlates more to human motion and thinking. And we still have just one button, because you just use the jump for up.

They are both intuitive, but I guarantee many mistakes will be made with hemebond's system, again unless a stance indicator icon is displayed in the HUD.

[6740d081605ecOlfred]

So why is a stance indicator needed?

[6740d0816094bThiefsieFool]

I don't really like these systems, I would suggest having a prone key if you need that mechanic, if you really want to remove keys then you could look into merging the leaning keys into a single modifier key whether it's toggle or hold, then you can press that and use the arrow keys to lean in 8 different directions if you so wish.

[6740d08160cebJoin2]

So why is a stance indicator needed?

Because of the cyclic nature of homebond's system. It's not needed per-se, but it will cut down on misjudgments of current stance. Could add an option to disable the icon also.

if you really want to remove keys then you could look into merging the leaning keys into a single modifier key whether it's toggle or hold, then you can press that and use the arrow keys to lean in 8 different directions if you so wish.

Thumbs up to the hold lean system too. Wolfenstien: the New Order had that.

[6740d08160e06fox]

Only if you bind that lean-modifier to a key that is comfortably reachable with either pinky or thumb - which narrows the choice down quite a bit. Maybe if you bind it to caps lock but I don't think that would feel nice.

[6740d08160ef9Join2]

The only real problem with the hold lean system (if executed well, ofc) is that you cannot move (your legs) whilst leaning, as WASD is overridden.