The Importance of Prone, Leaning & Crouching, and a suggestion for NightDive.

[674083e7edb45Olfred]

Because of the cyclic nature of homebond's system.

It's not cyclic. Cyclic means you go in a round, which you don't.
And even then, it would be unnecessary, your reason is simply not valid. Would you mind to elaborate further on this?

[674083e7eddf5Join2]

It would be easy to overshoot the desired stage of stance. All it takes is a single additional keypress to go from crouch to prone, and again prone is not something we want to go into at the wrong time. The hold system on the other hand requires a very different type of input to go prone, it requires you to hold down the key, not something you are likely to do by accident. Additionally, the transition (of movement between the stances) is not instantaneous, so to execute transitions you'd have to time keypresses with the movement itself (prone -> keypress -> wait for the hacker to get up from prone to crouch -> and then another keypress to stand). Can you see that this could easily result in many misjudged key presses, for example hammering the key in a hectic situation to get up as fast as possible, and end up overshooting into a jump? Granted, a good player would get the hang of the system easily, but even then misjudged proning and jumping would not be unheard of. Hold to prone on the other hand is very safe and also doesn't throw jumping into the mix, it's all one one key.

Anyway, I know the intuition, simplicity and safeness involved with the military shooter system from experience, and it's pretty well established in many games, but I can only judge how homebond's system appears on paper. An experiment is perhaps in order. Maybe I'll code them both into Deus Ex just for this purpose (not to stay, as Deus Ex has many loooong ass vents and having to crawl in them would not be fun - crouch in Deus Ex already puts you near prone level).

[674083e7ef075Olfred]

It would be easy to overshoot the desired stage of stance. All it takes is a single additional keypress to go from crouch to prone, and again prone is not something we want to go into at the wrong time.

I played some game which had this system and had no problem with overshooting as key presses were not qued and you had a slight animation sequence between switching modes. Can't remember the name right now.
And even if you overshooted or changed your mind midway, just pressing the other direction cancelled it and makes you move to the previous one again.

Also, when is a prone less safe than a crouch?

The hold system on the other hand requires a very different type of input to go prone, it requires you to hold down the key, not something you are likely to do by accident.

Well, you could undershoot the time to hold down the key and instead of going prone you get out of cover by standing up and pow, you are dead (or just get hit).
In another situation going prone would save you from getting hit, but oh well, it just took to long for the character to execute the desired action and you got hit (or, you got killed).
Delayed controls is one of the biggest aspects of frustration. Now you don't have it due to bad programming, no you deliberately add a delay.

Additionally, the transition (of movement between the stances) is not instantaneous, so to execute transitions you'd have to time keypresses with the movement itself (prone -> keypress -> wait for the hacker to get up from prone to crouch -> and then another keypress to stand).

As I explained earlier, you can also build in a button held down system to switch to the highest or lowest level of stance without the intermediate delay. AND, your system suffers from the same symptoms you just described 

Can you see that this could easily result in many misjudged key presses, for example hammering the key in a hectic situation to get up as fast as possible, and end up overshooting into a jump? Granted, a good player would get the hang of the system easily, but even then misjudged proning and jumping would not be unheard of. Hold to prone on the other hand is very safe and also doesn't throw jumping into the mix, it's all one one key.

Well, wildly pressing keys hecticly results in the controlled character behaving spasticly in any game.
And we already assumed that using sprint makes you stand upright. No matter the system, and no one disagreed with it.

Anyway, I know the intuition, simplicity and safeness involved with the military shooter system from experience,

Which is Call of Duty?

and it's pretty well established in many games,

Namely?

but I can only judge how homebond's system appears on paper. An experiment is perhaps in order. Maybe I'll code them both into Deus Ex just for this purpose (not to stay, as Deus Ex has many loooong ass vents and having to crawl in them would not be fun - crouch in Deus Ex already puts you near prone level).

It's a nice idea, but you are already biased with one system. So for you anything else would seem alienated.
To really test it out you would a test group which consist of different kind of people.

[674083e7ef6a4Join2]

Can't remember the name right now.

If you remember, let us know.

Also, when is a prone less safe than a crouch?

It is the deepest/furthest stance in the hierarchy from standing and also realistically would have the longest transition/animation to and from the stance. Plus if you somehow crawl under something or something happens overhead (hatch closes) you cannot stand up until you crawl out, but that's much less likely. Also movement speed is realistically the slowest in this stance. Look speed should also be slower as turning around whilst lying down is a slow process.

Well, wildly pressing keys hecticly results in the controlled character behaving spasticly in any game.
And we already assumed that using sprint makes you stand upright. No matter the system, and no one disagreed with it.

True.

Which is Call of Duty?Namely?

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (PC). I play lots of games and try to give them a chance before deciding if they are worth my time if I can help it. The singleplayer is an atrocious 5 hour cinematic borefest (as in pretty much all modern military shooters) but the multiplayer is certainly not bad. 

It's a nice idea, but you are already biased with one system. So for you anything else would seem alienated.

Definitely some bias as I've never tried the other system, but I'm quite clearly open to other systems. I did propose an experiment, but from what I see based on paper is this system is superior. Anyway I'm curious and as I said, I may code it just to give it a chance. I'm learning HTML & CSS at the moment but want to keep evolving/keep fresh my C-based skills anyway.

[674083e7eff48Olfred]

It is the deepest/furthest stance in the hierarchy from standing and also realistically would have the longest transition/animation to and from the stance. Plus if you somehow crawl under something or something happens overhead (hatch closes) you cannot stand up until you crawl out, but that's much less likely. Also movement speed is realistically the slowest in this stance. Look speed should also be slower as turning around whilst lying down is a slow process.

But we are talking about the accidential transition to prone from standing, even though crouch was desired.
Getting into some of the described situations would be a major fuckup, and people who manage to do that can't be helped anyway.
As I said, the transition can be aborted or "reversed" if you just press the opposite direction. And going prone to standing up, people would tend to press the sprint key instead of jump two times anyway. After a while people usually will stick to the fastes way possible.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (PC). I play lots of games and try to give them a chance before deciding if they are worth my time if I can help it. The singleplayer is an atrocious 5 hour cinematic borefest (as in pretty much all modern military shooters) but the multiplayer is certainly not bad. 

You said it's well established in many games, but only mention one. But I can't even name one game right now so point taken.

Btw, there was still no explaination why stance indicator is needed. But let's just say it's never needed as people should be smart enough to figure out what stance they are from simply looking at the current viewpoint.

[674083e7f04eaJoin2]

As I said, the transition can be aborted or "reversed" if you just press the opposite direction.

Yeah, that would help.

You said it's well established in many games, but only mention one. But I can't even name one game right now so point taken.

Both Battlefield: Hardline and Rainbow Six: Siege (console version, can't speak for PC). I only tried them shortly at a relative's house so I could be mistaken in the case of hardline...or not..

Edit: the Metal Gear Solid series uses hold proning too.

Btw, there was still no explaination why stance indicator is needed. But let's just say it's never needed as people should be smart enough to figure out what stance they are from simply looking at the current viewpoint.

Just to aid with not overshooting a stance in the heat of the moment and to make it clear which you are in at all times. I don't think it is absolutely necessary, it's just less necessary with the hold system as it's simpler and safer. Stance indicator is in quite a lot of games too (including System Shock, actually, but ofc it was interactive there too). Option to disable it would be preferable. 
Anyway, I'm open to this system, see my first reaction to it:

Your suggestion of contextual, location-specific proning defeats the point in so many ways. It shouldn't need to be explained why. Your suggested stance [input] system ain't too bad though.

It too is intuitive and streamlined and I believe I'd prefer it over SS1's T,G & B keys. There doesn't need to be a dedicated key just to stand up in particular, it just adds convolution.

[674083e7f0622callum13117]

I'm a little late to the party at this point, but I just wanted to say I'm totally in favour of Join Usss's original concept. It works brilliantly in Ghost Recon (which is a different game, I realize, but not so different that its system couldn't work for SS1).

[674083e7f0a71hemebond]

It works brilliantly in Ghost Recon

I don't believe Ghost Recon made you hold the crouch key to go prone, I think prone had its own key (X). Thought I could be wrong, it has been ~15 years since I played it. Enemy Territory: Quake Wars also gave prone its own key.

which is a different game

It's a very different game.

[674083e7f0bddvoodoo47]

prone is very important in certain type of games.

System Shock is not one of them.

[674083e7f0cddJoin2]

Neither is lean, or even jump & crouch for that matter. Blame the level design and enemy design in a lot of these cases.

[674083e7f0dd7voodoo47]

lean is very helpful to shoot around the corners (I found even lean forward useful), and jump and crouch are pretty much required to get around SSesque environment. so no.

[674083e7f0f6ccallum13117]

hemebond: I checked a couple FAQs, and actually, neither of us are 100% correct! Turns out that in Ghost Recon, there was a "stance up" button and a "stance down" button. So hit x once to crouch, another time to go prone. Then, hit c to go back to crouch, and another time to stand up. I wonder how this system would fare compared to the others discussed so far. One less stance button to press than Shock's current number of three, I guess.

[674083e7f10c3Kolya]

* Kolya does a few squats while reading this thread

[674083e7f1212fox]

Knowing about your water pressure situation, I'd strongly advise against any unnecessary transpiration.

[674083e7f15ddhemebond]

Turns out that in Ghost Recon, there was a "stance up" button and a "stance down" button. So hit x once to crouch, another time to go prone. Then, hit c to go back to crouch, and another time to stand up.

So it's just like the system I suggested earlier in the thread.

Neither is lean, or even jump & crouch for that matter.

I use lean, jump and crouch a lot in SS2. Not once have I thought "I wish I could lie on the floor".

[674083e7f1878Join2]

Not once have I thought "I wish I could lie on the floor" [in SS2].

Perhaps it is your way of thinking that needs a remake. 

[674083e7f19b6ZylonBane]

No, it really isn't.

[674083e7f1c73Join2]

Yeah, it is. Keep up the desire to strip out stuff for illegitimate reasons such as "I didn't see the point in it/wish for it", despite there being legitimate reasons it was implemented in Shock 1, then we'll have something resembling Bioshock in space.

Rephrased: It was in Shock 1. What else must go according to the mentality of some here? Whatever they as an individual player didn't use much or failed to see the point in I presume.

lean is very helpful to shoot around the corners (I found even lean forward useful), and jump and crouch are pretty much required to get around SSesque environment. so no.

When is crouch ever required in System Shock? No more than prone if I remember correctly.
Jump? A couple of instances of required platforming, very few. Of course it has other uses but so does prone, and its all optional.
Lean? You found it useful, good for you. As I highlighted quite clearly earlier in the thread however, prone potentially has many more uses than lean, it was just underutilized for a variety of reasons.

[674083e7f1dc5Join2]

It's a good thing people like you don't call the shots. We'd still be on the 8-bit sidescrolling standard of move & jump and little else if this was everyone's mentality.

"Crouch? Not once have I ever wished to crouch in Super Mario Bros, so why is it needed in SMB2?"
"Three dimensional movement in 3D worlds? Wow, it's like moving left or right, but MOAR".
-1980s homebond and ZylonBane types, respectively.

[674083e7f20d8ZylonBane]

If you think the fun of System Shock was the ridiculously over-complicated interface, you're full pants-on-head crazy. Even the original developers think SS1's interface was too much. It was joked about in the SS1 developer longplay a few months ago, and, well...

I look back on the UI now—in fact, I tried to play the game about a year and a half ago. The UI is like, what were we thinking? It’s a good idea to use every key on the keyboard, right? My god.

http://venturebeat.com/2016/02/24/warren-spector-believes-a-return-to-the-nostalgia-of-system-shock-can-deliver-emergent-gameplay/

The ability to go prone has a valid place in games where it confers some unique advantage, like hiding in ground cover, or improved aiming. No such advantages are gained by going prone in SS1. It is merely, yes, MOAR CROUCH. That's all. If you disagree, then you're disagreeing with Looking Glass, who obviously felt no need to implement going prone when they created the Dark Engine.

[674083e7f224fJoin2]

Again, I proposed a system that will simplify things greatly without sacrificing meaningful content. And don't play dumb, you know I am in favor of simplified UI.

We are both disagreeing with LGS. And that's fine, as exceptional as they were not everything was perfect about their methods and the control overload was one of them. By proposing this simplified system I am challenging their methods, as are you by proposing prone be removed.
NightDive just need to determine which is the best course of action via discussions of their own now. Removing it for any reason other than the workload not justifying the results (by their perspective) however would be a misguided mistake, in my opinion.

[674083e7f2345Kolya]

You can't lie down now, Join uss! The floor is flooded! I'm serious.
*splosh*splash*gurgle*
Oh my god! Medic!

[674083e7f26c9Dj 127]

If you disagree, then you're disagreeing with Looking Glass, who obviously felt no need to implement going prone when they created the Dark Engine.

I think this is ultimately what we must think before proposing changes we think are good. Why did they provide rollerskates? Why did they put in rear views? Why did they provide infinite use conversion chambers? Why did they go for a complex interface? Answering these will help us understand what the design of System Shock was about, rather than trying to make a shallow comparison to Resident Evil or whatever.

[674083e7f29ffOlfred]

If you disagree, then you're disagreeing with Looking Glass, who obviously felt no need to implement going prone when they created the Dark Engine.

So, basically you are saying, whenever something which was in a previous game is not present in a sequel, it's because it was unnecessary to begin with?

And in that quote you use it's simply about the UI and they keyboard layout in general. Which was a mess. That's why we are having this discussion, to see how it can be styled in a more user friendly fashion.
Also, if I recall correctly, in the longplay they said the UI was such a mess because they had the idea that everything you can do needs to be present at the UI. Including all the movements you can do.