The Importance of Prone, Leaning & Crouching, and a suggestion for NightDive.

[6743c109d23c1ZylonBane]

I'm a CQC/Push into enemy spawn guy and intelligent use of prone is one of many reasons I'm often at the top of the leaderboards in the games that feature it.

Aaaaand there it is.

[6743c109d2768Join2]

Aaaand there's the truth, nothing more. It was relevant to the discussion of personal experience with the mechanic. Notice how I've never said such thing until now?
Don't make this about me because you've run out of options, ZylonBane.

I'm an avid Battlefield player and I must say, I really missed going prone in bad company 2.
Sure it worked without, but I had quite the number of times where I was like "oh god if only there was prone in this game".
And prone wasn't removed due to it being unnecessary. They removed it because bad company 2 was designed for consoles. And therefore they simplified the game mechanics to not over-complicate the controls on controller.

No, it's far more likely they removed it because they lacked the perception to use one of the two systems proposed in this thread. Neither uses their own button/key and just streamlines things for the better. Not every action needs its own key just 'cause, sometimes its more appropriate to merge functions and prone is definitely one of them.

[6743c109d2ae6Gawain]

I find "dolphin diving" and similar tactics extremely annoying. From a competitive player's POV it might be "intelligent use of prone" but in my opinion it's bad design that takes away from the experience.

Yes, you are on the point here. Games are for entertainment and the level of simulation determines who likes it more. Can't please everyone. What is best for System Shock that I don't know. But the emphasis in SS1 was certainly simulation or atleast give player options to play the way they feel like.
SS1 controls are not very exact and doesn't encourage FPS style gameplay where fast and exact controls are important (I'm thinking more like Quake and TF style gameplay than ARMA or flashpoint that are relatively slow phased).

Edit:
My personal opinion after thinking about this is:
Making the gameplay slow and allowing wide range of control (lean, prone) serves my gameplay style best. Make it so.

[6743c109d2c4dfox]

Yes, different playstyles and all...

[6743c109d2ff9ZylonBane]

Don't make this about me because you've run out of options, ZylonBane.

Make it? This has been all about you and your obsessive crusade from the start. It's just funny to finally see the root of where it comes from. Why don't you tell us how you feel about bunny-hopping?

[6743c109d3197Join2]

It only became an "obsessive crusade" when undesirables lacking in design perspective came along and called for its removal, so I'm left to defend it. Not to mention you're someone around here that's given high social status so it was extra important to set things straight, for some that are more sheepish may take you seriously on the matter because "ZylonBane is always right". Same with the contextual system, which is damn right brilliant. You won't get a smoother, intuitive and more streamlined invoking method of prone. You've just as adamantly defended your stance as I have mine, so I can just as well claim this thread is about you and your personal crusade to butcher the game.

Bunny-hopping in which sense? Quake style? I'm not particularly a fan of the concept but the game doesn't intend to be highly realistic and it increases the skill cap, so Quake players can hop around as they please and I'm all for it. The developers were too as they didn't remove it in the sequels after it was discovered in Q1. 

[6743c109d369eOlfred]

Real dolphin diving is when you constantly go jumping and prone in a repeating fashion. At least in Battlefield this has even been taken care of in BF2. Even more in following titles.
Simply throwing yourself on the ground is.... yeah, simply throwing yourself on the ground.

No, it's far more likely they removed it because they lacked the perception to use one of the two systems proposed in this thread. Neither uses their own button/key and just streamlines things for the better. Not every action needs its own key just 'cause, sometimes its more appropriate to merge functions and prone is definitely one of them.

The whole game was simplified in comparison to the "main" Battlefield games. I'm sure they are smart enough to think of a way to implement prone on consoles. Oh wait, there is a BF3 & 4 on consoles! with prone!

[6743c109d37aeGawain]

On possibility to consider for simplified controls are the scheme used in Alien: Isolation. Where pressing button activates lean & peek mode. This of course disables moving and doesn't allow crawlspaces...

[6743c109d38f6voodoo47]

urgh. no.

[6743c109d3a0cJoin2]

Just to own up to an earlier mistake in the name of truth: I was wrong about not being able to lean over edges in Shock. You very much can. In Deus Ex you can't though sadly.

Edit: yes, forgot about dolphin diving/proning in mid-air, such as to dive into crawlspaces when the situation calls for it.

[6743c109d3cc8fox]

Edit: yes, forgot about dolphin diving/proning in mid-air, such as to dive into crawlspaces when the situation calls for it.

If there's a situation requiring me to do that, I'll probably quit playing at that point.

[6743c109d4005Join2]

If there's a situation requiring me to do that, I'll probably quit playing at that point.

Lol.

No don't  worry, something like that wouldn't be a requirement as it's a rather obscure maneuver that would require some way of communicating to the player, such as on-screen prompts, which I doubt would make it into a SS game (other than the tutorial, at least).
By call for it I just meant an "emergent" situation where it would be the smartest action to take e.g grenade thrown into a small room by a squad of cyborgs outside, the only way to avoid damage from the grenade is to charge out the door into the cyborg squad or dive into the vent, assuming there is no time to get to it and throw it back.

"emergent" is in quotes because all these would be specifically designed functions (AI clearing rooms with grenades, vent diving) just the specific sequence in which they happened may not have been intended.
That's the word that's more special than "emergent gameplay": "simulated gameplay". not much is truly emergent (especially in System Shock), but the simulated nature of the systems is where everything special derives from, including those moments of emergent gameplay, but also the illusion/immersion of being in the game, the sheer depth of things the player gets to interact with, and so on. Stating the obvious here but emergent gameplay is focused on way too much by the devs (in marketing, at least) when it is the parent principle that made them...but I guess emergent gameplay by itself is just more marketable.

[6743c109d4137Dj 127]

All I want to know is, why are you so obsessed with a video game having mechanics you personally like? I like a few gameplay mechanics too, like disguising from the Hitman games or the light and sound stealth system from Thief, but I don't argue vehemently about putting it in many games, whereas you seem to like arguing about putting in checkpoint systems or prone when the game isn't even in alpha yet, or barely in alpha.

[6743c109d4577Join2]

This thread is not about me, it's about the thread topic. If you want to ask personal questions that basically equate to "why are you a fan, behaving like a fan, doing exactly what all the other fans are doing?", I would say take it to PM, but I'm getting tired of your bullshit on this board and elsewhere. Why are you even here in this thread taking sides on the matter of prone? You haven't even played System Shock if your words from a couple months back still holds true. I didn't mind you following me around when you were a fan of mine because it was convenient for me, but now that you hold a grudge against me I have to deal with your extremely dumb posts directly and it's giving me a headache.

You get this one final response, that's it:

All I want to know is, why are you so obsessed with a video game having mechanics you personally like?

I think what you mean is "why am I fan, defending a mechanic that was originally in the game, that I fear will be removed?" That's what I am actually doing here, not what you say I am doing.
I'm being a typical fan, defending something I like about the game. Were you born yesterday or do you just not know how this works?

By the way this quote above is succinct confirmation you're only here because I am, not for the game.

If I thought prone was a must-have mechanic for any game, I would have put it in Deus Ex. I did think about it actually, but determined it would not be suitable because of all the extremely long vents that'd take ages to crawl through.

I like a few gameplay mechanics too, like disguising from the Hitman games or the light and sound stealth system from Thief, but I don't argue vehemently about putting it in many games

Since prone was already in System Shock I can only assume you are referring exclusively to the save system here. I didn't originally propose the system be implemented in the remake, NightDive did and asked for fan thoughts, making it a hot topic. I gave my thoughts as requested and had to work extra hard to make my case as the ignorance and arrogance that surrounds the topic is always strong. And yes, restrictive saving is a rare thing that I do think is suitable for a wide variety of game types, because it doesn't conflict with the components of what a game is at its very core like unlimited manual saving does. The vast majority of games ever made, including real world/non-video ones, do not have unlimited player-mediated saving, and that works in their favor in many ways. Of course we still want progress to be saved as games are long, so enter designed saving.

whereas you seem to like arguing about putting in checkpoint systems or prone when the game isn't even in alpha yet, or barely in alpha.

1. Early in development is the best time for fans to have their say.
2. Prone was already in the game. Save system was proposed by NightDive. The developers are watching. I'm providing solid reasoning in favor of these things in the hope that they make it into the final product, as they are undoubtedly a perfect match for this game.
3. You're on a board for fans of a game discussing relevant topics to the game, I don't know what else you expect.
4. My specialty is in game systems and mechanics, you can bet your ass I like arguing about those things.
5. Why are you not also asking why ZylonBane is vehemently proposing for prone and whatever else to NOT be in the game? We're having a discussion, and you're rudely interrupting.

Think with the rational part of your brain, not the part that revolves around your grudge against me. I don't enjoy being mean to anyone but you have become a problem. I can deal with ZylonBane's attacks because he's still here for the game/thread topic and is another passionate fan, you're not. Plus his posts aren't bottom of the barrel.

[6743c109d4ad8Djant]

By the way this quote above is succinct confirmation you're only here because I am, not for the game.

Actually I'm here for many reasons, partly for System Shock modding and partly out of anticipation for SS3. While I'm not too worried about the SS1 remake myself, I do care a bit about it because it's success/failure could determine just how much breathing room Otherside has for SS3. I'm just tired because I see that you're a bit stubborn about things you like, an example being the save system. Anyway, keep talking about prone and how it would work for SS3 here.

[6743c109d5032voodoo47]

Since prone was already in System Shock

that is actually not (completely true) - what SS1 had is an option to position the player body via the UI, something that the devs probably considered interesting at some point, but proved completely overblown and unnecessary in the end. it also allowed pronelean, leanrun and a few other weird states that have thankfully ended at the scrapyard of bad ideas.

so the argument of prone having to be in the remake because it was in the original is pretty much void, as it was only there because of the ancient and strange way body control was implemented.

so, as I've said before, prone does have an important part in a certain type of games (open world army sim shooters). but System Shock is simply not one of them. no amount of "if implemented correctly, then xyz" arguments is going to change that - System Shock is not an open world army sim shooter. not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

[6743c109d5583Join2]

I'm just tired because I see that you're a bit stubborn about things you like, an example being the save system.

If you haven't noticed, a lot of us are stubborn. When it comes to what I perceive as good game design I'm always stubborn until proven wrong. If proven wrong. It's not so much simply a case of whether I like it or not, or thought it was good in game x, I specifically think these things are very suitable for a System Shock remake. And again. I'm not the only one: NightDive proposed the save system, Looking Glass implemented prone back in 1994.

that is actually not (completely true) - what SS1 had is an option to position the player body via the UI, something that the devs probably considered interesting at some point, but proved completely overblown and unnecessary in the end. it also allowed pronelean, leanrun and a few other weird states that have thankfully ended at the scrapyard of bad ideas.

so the argument of prone having to be in the remake because it was in the original is pretty much void, as it was only there because of the ancient and strange way body control was implemented.

so, as I've said before, prone does have an important part in a certain type of games (open world army sim shooters). but System Shock is simply not one of them. no amount of "if implemented correctly, then xyz" arguments is going to change that - System Shock is not an open world army sim shooter. not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

What is this I don't even know, where are the System shock fans? Why is pronelean a weird state? Can we not move or reposition our body/head whilst lying down? You're simply wrong. It was very intentional with the goal of providing great degrees of control over the player character which is good for both gameplay and simulation/immersion. Also I'm pretty sure running cancels lean, so no leanrun.

And no, modern military shooters aren't that different than System Shock in some respects. Both are slow and methodical. Both have a partial focus on realism. Both provide nice degrees of control over your character (prone, lean, sprint etc). Doesn't change the fact that System Shock is better in nearly every way, but never mind that. If there was a System Shock deathmatch, the combat itself would not be all that different from modern military shooter x. Perhaps Crysis would fit the bill if we're including hardware upgrades, although that game is less of a shooter more of a "who can cloak the best" game.

[6743c109d5699voodoo47]

yes we can. we can also sweat. do we want to implement sweating now? I don't think so.

also, leanrunning is a thing in SS1, just double checked (you need to hold the lean with your mouse). so you CAN run around like a headless chicken if you want. realistic? maybe. useful? no.

[6743c109d57bdJoin2]

Sweating could possibly happen in-game when System Shock and its players steps into the realm of fully-realized VR as it is destined to. Prone on the other hand serves a lot of uses right here, right now, and did back in 1994 too. Your failure to see the value in it is all that's wrong here.

As for lean-running, very likely a bug, not a feature, although I could be wrong.

[6743c109d58c6voodoo47]

I see it perfectly. it's just that my opinion is that prone has no place in SS style games.

don't boil avocados.

[6743c109d5c46Learonys]

A lesson for those lacking in perception:

System Shock - the uses of Prone

Well in that case, i got my own response for you! I hope my lack of perception isn't too apparent. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JerQVSDPsmA

[6743c109d5f83Join2]

This thread...my God.
 

I see it perfectly. it's just that my opinion is that prone has no place in SS style games.

Can you give me any reason why that is your opinion? It makes absolutely no sense given that LGS' design philosophy placed great emphasis on empowering the player via realism-based gameplay. What makes it have "no place"?

Youtube video response

*Facepalm*

[6743c109d6087ZylonBane]

LGS's design philosophy also included learning from their mistakes, as evidenced by the absence of needlessly granular posture control from the engine they designed after SS1.

[6743c109d618bJoin2]

Absolutely, they did learn from their mistakes, but prone as a concept was never one of them. It is meaningful simulated player empowerment. The execution of it in accordance with the overarching design may not have been the best, but it was just one part of many that made System Shock a revolutionary game.