The Importance of Prone, Leaning & Crouching, and a suggestion for NightDive.

[673f9fec84169Learonys]

*Facepalm*

^ makes a video with cherrypiced examples on how to use prone, puts it into a video and expects everyone to embrace his ideology after
> replies with a video to train my editing skills and put a more realistic approach on uses of crouch, and actually gives comparisons to alternatives

...Aaaaand all i get is *facepalm*. Good job dude, you just made yourself sound so much more credible.

[673f9fec84429Join2]

Your video was extremely skewed. About the only worthwhile comparisons was where you managed to use lean to get a similar line of sight advantage as prone in two places.

I'll use your first segment to highlight it to you, as you need a hand:

The purpose of going prone at the vertical-opening shutter is to get an equal opportunity to spot & shoot NPCs on the other side as they would you (bonus element of surprise if the enemies happened to be human-controlled, but that's not relevant in SS with its dumb bots/AI). As soon as the shutter is up to head height, this is where it'd be a good idea to stand up as prone has served its purpose and you want your maneuverability back. So why in the world would you instead of doing the above proceed to crawl backwards around the corner into another enemy and die? It's a matter of intelligent use of prone, not exaggeratedly dumb use of it. Any input used at the wrong time/incorrectly can get you killed. This segment served no purpose in comparison of anything, all it did was highlight that playing like an idiot will get you killed.

Take it this way: It would be like me saying "here's why lean is bad in comparison to prone" then entering lean in combat and proceeding to stare at the ceiling as enemies mowed me down, and then playing to the best of my ability using prone in comparison. Very skewed data.

[673f9fec84a91Learonys]

Your video was extremely skewed. About the only worthwhile comparisons was where you managed to use lean to get a similar line of sight advantage as prone in two places.

I'll use your first segment to highlight it to you, as you need a hand:

The purpose of going prone at the vertical-opening shutter is to get an equal opportunity to spot & shoot NPCs on the other side as they would you (bonus element of surprise if the enemies happened to be human-controlled, but that's not relevant in SS with its dumb bots/AI). As soon as the shutter is up to head height, this is where it'd be a good idea to stand up as prone has served its purpose and you want your maneuverability back. So why in the world would you instead of doing the above proceed to crawl backwards around the corner into another enemy and die? It's a matter of intelligent use of prone, not exaggeratedly dumb use of it. Any input used at the wrong time/incorrectly can get you killed. This segment served no purpose in comparison of anything, all it did was highlight that playing like an idiot will get you killed.

Take it this way: It would be like me saying "here's why lean is bad in comparison to prone" then entering lean in combat and proceeding to stare at the ceiling as enemies mowed me down, and then playing to the best of my ability using prone in comparison. Very skewed data.

Call it skewed if you like, that's your opinion, but how often can you say it was a better idea to go prone in combat than standing straight, in the open? Maybe if you managed to find "cover unique to prone". Also, how often can you say you had enough fingers free in this game to change your stance and move at the same time while in combat? Having to press so many buttons at once without screwing up once isn't easy. Yes, you could simply say "git gud" but i'd rather "git gud" in a game that is challenging, not punishing. Instead i'd rather not worry about crouching at all and use my extra finger on my left hand to more skillfully attack the enemy with my remaining tools.

The only time i've seen a let's player make frequent use of prone, he was glitching through doors. This is for a reason, prone is simply impractical, and will be in the remaster if no major gameplay changes are made. I just want to be able to move faster than a centipede when engaging an enemy.

EDIT: Oh yeah, i forgot to answer one of your questions. Some of the actions in this video weren't actually scripted. I forgot that there's a Hopper behind me, and I had enough footage for my video because I showed how prone could be useful. I just randomly decided to move back instead of somewhere else, am i supposed to say sorry now? Do you want me to make another example which "more fairly" compares them? I've got enough left to show you, trust me!

[673f9fec84fd4Join2]

Call it skewed if you like, that's your opinion

No, it isn't.

but how often can you say it was a better idea to go prone in combat than standing...?

Not too often, much like crouch. That's beside the point. Sometimes it is a better idea, and that provides meaningful choice.

Also, how often can you say you had enough fingers free in this game to change your stance and move at the same time while in combat?

I already stated I didn't use prone very much at all for a variety of reasons, convoluted controls being the primary issue. Enter the ideal remake with controls that offer the same degree of freedom whilst being streamlined and intuitive.

Do you want me to make another example which "more fairly" compares them? I've got enough left to show you, trust me!

I'll pass.

[673f9fec8514acallum13117]

I must say, this is probably the most heated discussion of a single game mechanic I've ever witnessed. 

I watched both videos, and I think they both made good points. I totally use prone in System Shock when scouting new rooms, or for vertically-opening doors (i.e. point #1 in Join Usss's video). Yes, lean often works about the same, as Learonys demonstrated, but that doesn't mean prone should be cut out entirely. Besides, there's definite aesthetic appeal to going prone to check out a new area, as opposed to leaning awkwardly as Learonys did to investigate that basement area of the med deck.

Not everyone will use prone if it's included in the Shock remake. But the bottom line is, why cut out an interesting game mechanic?

[673f9fec852d6Kolya]

Good point. It could just be an option but nearly useless, just like in the original game.
And you should have seen us discuss weapon degradation.

[673f9fec8543efox]

Well, at least three or four people have voiced their wish for prone in this thread. It's a minority but if it's in any way indicative of what a greater user base might want that's more then enough to keep it on board, imo.

[673f9fec85765ZylonBane]

But the bottom line is, why cut out an interesting game mechanic?

Because time is money.

I personally don't care if proning is implemented, just as long as it's off on its own key that doesn't interfere with crouching, and isn't required by the level design.

[673f9fec85a6ccallum13117]

That's fair, ZB. I'm a fan of prone, but for the sake of those who are not, it shouldn't interfere with the overall gameplay. (Or Night Dive's budget, for that matter.)

And you should have seen us discuss weapon degradation.

Well, I know what I'm doing tonight!

[673f9fec85ce0Join2]

Because time is money.

A lot of things would have never made it into Shock with this mentality, such as the Tri-Op mini games software. From what I heard, a number of things in Shock were developed off of an individual's own back by working unpaid overtime/at home even. I bet the mini games were one such thing. You and I are modders, where we share a similar love for a project and our time is not governed by money as a result. A game like Shock needs people with a lot of love for the project vision.

[673f9fec85fb3Olfred]

And obviously it takes about 3 month of work to implement prone.

[673f9fec86116voodoo47]

I'm thinking that the feedback request topic represents the "reason" side of fandom, while this topic represents "insanity".

[673f9fec86219Kolya]

I agree with Join uss that besides economic considerations true dedication to a project is what makes it special and it is recognised by users. I'm not sure if prone is a perfect case for this, but it isn't the worst either.

[673f9fec86316ZylonBane]

True dedication is fine, as long as it's balanced by resistance to the sort of kitchen-sink design approach that yields user-hostile messes that only the tiniest niche of niche gamers have the patience for. Yeah it's great that Dwarf Fortress exists, but I'd rather play Minecraft.

[673f9fec864edJoin2]

Given the generalized nature of that statement can we assume you'd also rather play Bioshock than System Shock, as the latter is too "user hostile" for you? If setting and story is a concern in that case, then perhaps you wish this to be Bioshock in space from a gameplay depth standpoint?

The only thing that was user hostile about System Shock was its controls, not the fact that there was many inputs, but that there was multiple ways to achieve the same input (despite the devs intention in doing so was to do the opposite and be user friendly), there was no mouselook, and there was unnecessary dedicated keys (crouch/prone/stand) when they could have been merged. 
Now that mouselook exists, things will be simplified considerably and you won't have much trouble fitting it all on a joypad even. It will be far from user hostile and will be easier to get to grips with than Shock 2, which itself I wouldn't call user hostile.

Drop your obsessive crusade to butcher the game.

And kitchen sink design is a big part of what made LGS great, doesn't mean it cannot be executed in an accessible manner.

[673f9fec86627voodoo47]

do you seriously believe that not having prone will damage the game in some way? I really don't see anyone saying "this would be such a good remake, but I can't go prone, it's ruined", no matter how hard I try.

I'm also pretty sure they will reverse the mouse controls, meaning that left button will shoot and right button will pick things up. again, no way this is ruining the remake for anyone in any way.

[673f9fec86a0cJoin2]

do you seriously believe that not having prone will damage the game in some way? I really don't see anyone saying "this would be such a good remake, but I can't go prone, it's ruined", no matter how hard I try.

Damage it in some way? absolutely.
Ruin it? Not necessarily, it could still be good in spite of potential dumbing down, nonetheless it's a step in the wrong direction if we could go prone in 1994 but not now just because some failed to see the point. What happened to game design progression and iteration and why is it so rare these days? Rhetorical question. 

I'm also pretty sure they will reverse the mouse controls, meaning that left button will shoot and right button will pick things up. again, no way this is ruining the remake for anyone.

Obviously not, because nothing is removed, only made more accessible by default as this input is standard.

[673f9fec86b5avoodoo47]

what I'm trying to say is that there are quite a few important things NightDive needs to get right to make the remake work. and prone just isn't one of them - it's simply insignificant. just like leanrun and a bunch of other things nobody cared about, even though they technically were in the game.

I'm all in for preserving history and culture, but I just don't feel this prone crusade of yours.

[673f9fec86e25Join2]

it's simply insignificant. just like leanrun and a bunch of other things nobody cared about, even though they technically were in the game.

That's your perspective failing you again.

Don't get me wrong it's not the most important mechanic, but it is certainly not insignificant nor comparable to a bug (leanrun). Its value to me is on par with lean, if not more. It has more unique uses than lean, but the level design and enemy design doesn't accommodate it that well. Nonetheless, it's a worthwhile concept and feature of Shock.

[673f9fec870e2ZylonBane]

Dare I confuse JU! even further by pointing out that SS1's "prone" is stupidly unrealistic? In reality when you go prone it has some significant drawbacks:
- Your movement speed is reduced to a slow, awkward crawl
- Your turn speed is vastly reduced
- You take up significantly more floor space, since your body is spread out

SS1's "prone" is more like a barely-physically-possible super-squat.

Its value to me is on par with lean, if not more.

That's because you are an edge-case weirdo with a floor fetish.

[673f9fec873d5Join2]

Dare I confuse JU! even further by pointing out that SS1's "prone" is stupidly unrealistic? In reality when you go prone it has some significant drawbacks:
- Your movement speed is reduced to a slow, awkward crawl
- Your turn speed is vastly reduced
- You take up significantly more floor space, since your body is spread out

All things that can be "fixed" if need be in the remake.

That's because you are an edge-case weirdo with a floor fetish.

Because I really just want to hump the floor, not lie down when it is the optimal choice in a survival scenario or simply desire it as it adds meaningful gameplay depth.
How it really is is because I perceive its many uses and also value what LGS' designers were aiming for when they implemented it.

Anyhow, thread has ran its course. I don't wish to discuss good game design with blind old men any further.

[673f9fec875d8voodoo47]

people not seeing things your way does not equal to them failing to see or understand. I understand perfectly, I just don't agree with you - we actually had two similar things happening during SCP development, first was the guy that threw a tantrum and left the forum because we have ruined the game by changing the tank OS upgrade to give 10hp instead of 5, the second one was dissatisfied with how we handled the multiple turret hacking issue - in vanilla, no matter what you do, if you hack one turret with another turret close by, they will start to shoot at each other (even when the security is disabled), messing things up, and generally frustrate the player who did not expect that happening (as 99.99% multiple turret hacks occur with security disabled). so we have worked around the issue by making them never shoot each other, as this (them shooting at each other) is something a regular player would never want. but guess what, one guy was actually doing this on purpose to weaken them, no matter how illogical may it sound - so for him, we have made things worse (no tantrums though). but still, for 99.99% people out there, both changes are improvements, and we've kept them, despite those two people complaining.

and I could go on - there are always some people who think one particular change/fix  has ruined the game, couple of them can be found in the TFix TTLG topic (oh noes, AI models have necks now, HERESY!), some are hanging around Doom source ports forums fighting against higher resolutions and texture filtering and so on. generally, they are best ignored.

let me finish this with following - a lesson learned from this topic should be "take hardcore fans with a grain of salt once they start to go nuts with small details'".

[673f9fec87910ZylonBane]

I don't wish to discuss good game design with blind old men any further.

Okay, time cube guy, us educated stupid folks will just party on.

[673f9fec87a13Kolya]

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