SS2 FM Blind Disposition v1.4.2

[67415cf0ad764voodoo47]

no, of course not.

//also, despite some unfinishedness, few bugs and a couple of choices that are questionable both from technical and gameplay standpoints, the FM is definitely playable and completable, so moving to the FM subforum (repacked to get rid of the extra subfolder and to reduce the size, also deleted the part about modifying SS2 directly from the readme as this is pretty much the no.1 thing that shouldn't be done, ever).

[67415cf0ada8echuckles n chestnuts]

Well, I am back and I appreciate what you did Voodoo, but I changed the name of the pic to something more suitable to my style, I don't know why you named the screenshot that, was a good screenshot and I kept it but I just changed the name.

[67415cf0adb9dvoodoo47]

I like to give weird names to my screenshots.

[67415cf0adc9dchuckles n chestnuts]

Yeah I noticed 

[67415cf0ade18chuckles n chestnuts]

Hey gnartsch,

Thank you,

I might have already replied to your post but I am replying again and saying that I am glad you enjoyed it!  And in addition it is my understanding that you created the minstrel mission.  Which I will be trying out here soon, that FM looks interesting to me.  (and please correct me if I am wrong if you are not the author of that FM).  At any rate, I'll be playing that FM here very soon and will post on that page my feedback.  I'll see you around in the posts!

[67415cf0ae101voodoo47]

you created the minstrel mission.

nope - the author's name is in the topic subject.

[67415cf0ae240chuckles n chestnuts]

Ah ok, I thought he did since he was the poster of the mission.  I didn't know hence why I asked so the minstrel is created by Pixie then I take it (I presumed that was maybe his nickname or something), I stand corrected then.

[67415cf0ae45dZylonBane]

Finally "finished" this. Honestly, the moment I got dropped in that final boss area I noped the fuck out of it.

Regarding the build quality, everyone has already pointed out most of the issues I noticed-- disconnected room brushes, weird object scales, level layout too large (feels more like a shopping mall than a spaceship), keycards, no logs, etc. And it is hard. Ridiculously hard in places. I've been playing SS2 for over a decade, was playing this on Normal, and yet was save-scumming like crazy near the end.

Well, there's the core of a solid FM here. I'd consider this in its current state a beta at best. This is why people really, really need testers and technical advisors when developing a mission. I hope you have plans to update this and smooth out the rough edges.

[67415cf0aea73chuckles n chestnuts]

Finally "finished" this. Honestly, the moment I got dropped in that final boss area I noped the fuck out of it.

Regarding the build quality, everyone has already pointed out most of the issues I noticed-- disconnected room brushes, weird object scales, level layout too large (feels more like a shopping mall than a spaceship), keycards, no logs, etc. And it is hard. Ridiculously hard in places. I've been playing SS2 for over a decade, was playing this on Normal, and yet was save-scumming like crazy near the end.

Well, there's the core of a solid FM here. I'd consider this in its current state a beta at best. This is why people really, really need testers and technical advisors when developing a mission. I hope you have plans to update this and smooth out the rough edges.

Hi Zylon,

I am sorry that you did not seem to like my FM. 

I will agree some of my level design in retrospect is a little bit big for what its intended for but I wouldn't go as far as to say its equivalent to a shopping mall lol.  And I will also agree that the difficulty might be a bit on the hard side, but that is what my intent was, was to make an experience where the player must think (because believe me the FM is more than beatable, and did you also know there are two ways/maps to end the game?).

I'll also agree with you about technical advisers, which I regrettably had none during development.  But as far as to say its 'beta' at its current state, I don't think so.  But your entitled to your opinion I suppose.  Keep in mind I took an accumulated 4 to 5 months or so over a 2 year time span to provide 'fan based' content for people such as yourself to enjoy (yes I realize now that this site is more of a resource not a platform to download maps/mods), also this was my first time ever dealing with shockED and it was very very difficult for me to get the results I currently have (not sure if you've ever tried to make an FM yourself in shockED with absolutely no help but it isn't exactly the easiest thing, but if your passionate about it, you can manage I think).  And yes I understand it doesn't matter how long I took to make it, nor how I made it, but its made nonetheless; but I feel what I said in this paragraph is worth mentioning.

Lastly, I am not sure if I will update this FM as I felt I put alot of work into it already to get to the state of how it is now.  Is it perfect, no, is alot of the critique based upon personal opinion and not absolute fact, yes.  However, that being said if I do do an update dependent upon how ambitious I get about it, I will most likely only do a few tweaks here and there, but expect my next FM to be better, as I learned alot from everyone's 'critique' (and boy have I recieved critique from you people  ).

[67415cf0af1b5Olfred]

Hi Zylon,

I am sorry that you did not seem to like my FM. 

I saw what ZylonBane wrote rather positive than negative.
Only because it is criticism, it mustn't mean it is bad. Just an opinion what someone consinders could be better.

I'm happy you will contine working on SS2 FMs. It's kinda said you don't perfect this one, but I can also understand you. Usually I handle something like this the same way. Starting something to get the basics down, and once that is established create something entirely new.

[67415cf0afc4fZylonBane]

Lastly, I am not sure if I will update this FM as I felt I put alot of work into it already to get to the state of how it is now.

After all the months of effort you put into it, it would be a shame not to spend a single evening fixing the really simple stuff. For example:

The keycards don't behave properly because you've changed the KeySrc LockID. It must always be 0 in SS2.

Room brushes must overlap at least a little bit for sound to propagate between them. You can view the sound propagation in a level by selecting a room brush, then clicking Show All in the bottom panel. Doing this in the ship's first level shows hardly any properly connected rooms. You can also check for room brush coverage in first person view by doing View -> Show -> Bad Rooms, or by typing show_bad_rooms=1 in the console. This will very visibly indicate where parts of interiors aren't inside a room brush.

But basically, you worked on this mission set a long time in solitude, then at the point where nearly all authors say, "Okay, it's ready for beta testers", you instead said, "Okay, it's done."... and things went predictably. That's the only important mistake you made. Even the most experienced DromEd'ers in this community, who've been pumping out professional-quality missions for years, do extensive external testing.

[67415cf0afe4dicemann]

One thing I'll disagree with Zylon on was the difficulty as I get where he was going with that. It was intentionally meant to be difficult.

So in that, it was fine to me. I like hard levels. Shows the many directions you can take a level. The cyberspace bits was my favorite part of it. Besides that damn door with the door code.

[67415cf0b0150ZylonBane]

One thing I'll disagree with Zylon on was the difficulty as I get where he was going with that. It was intentionally meant to be difficult.

So you're disagreeing with me by... agreeing with me?

The cyberspace bits was my favorite part of it.

I'm starting to think I played a different cyberspace section than everyone else. The one I experienced was a brutal, linear slog seemingly designed to drain every resource I'd built up. It probably would have been impossible if I hadn't hacked security before going in there. I actually avoided that area for a long time because I was convinced it was some kind of easter egg and not the actual way to finish.

[67415cf0b0486icemann]

I'll quote the line that was in relation to.

Ridiculously hard in places

Though re-reading that post perhaps you didn't mean it as a negative. If so disregard.

I never found it to be ridiculously hard. Hard yes. I played it on the normal difficulty. For the hard bits in cyberspace (of which there is a few), I found hacking the turrets helped out immensely against the walking Shodan's. I still had to save-scum somewhat, but I do that in most games so didn't see it as an issue. My main point was that I don't see the fact that it has hard bits as a negative. If it was so hard that someone just gave up and quit then fair enough, but it wasn't difficulty on anything of that sort of level.

Though I come from a action heavy background when it comes to FPS games. So maybe that's a factor. I also recall chuckles mentioning a fair while back that he was going for the Doom style action (just as I did with my FM) so that makes perfect sense.

[67415cf0b05ddZylonBane]

For the record, I have no problem with FPS action games. I've played through lots of them over years. But if you're going to go that way with an FM, go all in, with high player speed, lots of health, assault rifle, no degradation, piles of ammo, etc. Attempting to combine the skittish, resource-starved default SS2 soldier with typical FPS action is a recipe for frustration.

Not coincidentally, this is the same reason Ancient annoyed me so much.

[67415cf0b0b31chuckles n chestnuts]

So you're disagreeing with me by... agreeing with me?
I'm starting to think I played a different cyberspace section than everyone else. The one I experienced was a brutal, linear slog seemingly designed to drain every resource I'd built up. It probably would have been impossible if I hadn't hacked security before going in there. I actually avoided that area for a long time because I was convinced it was some kind of easter egg and not the actual way to finish.

I've been reading both your posts Zylon and icemanns.   And I can say, as the maker of the FM, I don't recall putting a security console nor linking any of the cyber area turrets to a security console anywhere near the cyber area, so I am gonna presume you either went invisible with psi and hacked the turrets or something else.  And yes, I did make it difficult as I believe I mentioned that was my intent was to make players think in earlier posts.

And as a sidenote icemann's mission 'ancient' was one of the first FM's I played.  And despite the fact it is fairly raw in some areas, it is a complete and playable FM overall and I respect it being its a fan mission and he took the time (or anyone that creates fan mods/maps for that matter) to put something together for the rest of us to enjoy, and that alone I think is something worth appreciating regardless of the 'perfection' level of the FM.  Now granted, yes there is bad 'fan made' content out there; in example: half-made mods/maps with truly impossible ways of beating them or broken functions, and maps that are literally just a box with a lighting entity and one enemy and a gun (yes I've seen that not in dark engine games, but other custom maps) which would deem in most peoples eyes obviously 'effortless'.  And so far all the FM's I've seen and played on here are pretty decent for fan made content.

Also, I've made maps for other level editor mediums and never got near the criticism I have received here on this website, which I have said before I am truly sorely disappointed with the seemingly biased attitude towards my FM (granted I get it, its not all pure conjecture some of it is legitimate concerns for level design but still, I play tested my FM countless times and I felt it was more than playable, as well as some of my other online friend(s) who have played it enjoyed it as well).  And I've searched other FM's on here and they didn't seem to take flak as much as mine has, but maybe I am not looking good enough, I don't know, but I digress.

With the aformentioned being stated, I still am strongly considering patching the FM for some tweaks here and there based upon some of the objective critique from individual members on this site when I get around to it, but no guarantee's though.

[67415cf0b0fd0ZylonBane]

And I can say, as the maker of the FM, I don't recall putting a security console nor linking any of the cyber area turrets to a security console anywhere near the cyber area, so I am gonna presume you either went invisible with psi and hacked the turrets or something else.

It would be wiser to presume that I meant exactly what I said. Hacked security in SS2 is a global function for the current map. So hacking security in the "real world" automatically disables the turrets in the cyber world as well.

[67415cf0b12e0chuckles n chestnuts]

It would be wiser to presume that I meant exactly what I said. Hacked security in SS2 is a global function for the current map. So hacking security in the "real world" automatically disables the turrets in the cyber world as well.

I guess I learned something new then, I always was under the impression (due to my notes and research from resource websites) you had to switchlink the turrets from the ecology for the security system so that they are also deactivated when the security computer is hacked (remember though I used shockED v. 2.12 it would be 'wise'for you to know that as well  ).  I didn't know it was universal.  So tell me, was this an implement in newer versions of shockED or has this always been because according to my resources you had to switchlink turrets from the ecology that controlled the security system, and as I have tested as well, it doesn't work that easy where you just put in a console in a map and it just 'works' tell me have you made an FM before Zylon?

[67415cf0b1406ZylonBane]

Actually, yes, you can drop a security console anywhere in a level, without linking it to anything, and it "just works" to disable every camera and turret when hacked. And yes, it has always worked that way, in every version of ShockEd.

The link from the console to an ecology is so it can trigger a security alert when a hack is failed on it.

[67415cf0b195cicemann]

Interesting. Never knew that little bit of info. And now I know the bit that annoyed Zylon about my FM. Fair enough on that. I knew going in, that many people may not have liked the style I was going for. To be honest I was making the FM for myself more than anyone else. Just wanted to see how one done in that style would be in the SS2 engine, as none had been done that way at that point.

And in my case I didn't do any disabling of security. Just saved, ran up to turrets and tried to hack them as quick as I could before they had the time to fully turn to face me and fire. Often have to do that in the vanilla game proper.

Also, I've made maps for other level editor mediums and never got near the criticism I have received here on this website, which I have said before I am truly sorely disappointed with the seemingly biased attitude towards my FM

Firstly, every community is different to the next. I'm not sure how the Fallout community is nowadays, but prior to Fallout 3 they were a damn fanatical lot, highly critical of everything. If you tried to release anything fan made for either of the 2 games, look out :p.

Other bit I would say, which is what I've been saying all along - which is that all that has been said was not said in a negative context. A sentence on the internet can be read many different ways based on the view point of the person reading it. What matters more than anything else is whether or not people are downloading and playing your FM, if so, excellent . Just take anything said on board to assist you in future game/or level design projects.

[67415cf0b1fadMarvin]

Also, I've made maps for other level editor mediums and never got near the criticism I have received here on this website, which I have said before I am truly sorely disappointed with the seemingly biased attitude towards my FM (granted I get it, its not all pure conjecture some of it is legitimate concerns for level design but still, I play tested my FM countless times and I felt it was more than playable, as well as some of my other online friend(s) who have played it enjoyed it as well).  And I've searched other FM's on here and they didn't seem to take flak as much as mine has, but maybe I am not looking good enough, I don't know, but I digress.

There is a very simple reason for you getting more "flak" (I'd call it critique) than other FM authors: Most FMs published here where finished before Systemshock.org even existed and many authors, most notably Christine, have left the scene entirely, never to return. You cannot tell someone to try harder if she isn't there.

[67415cf0b20faZylonBane]

Actually I saw Christine online here a few days ago, and she posted recently over at TTLG as well.

As far as critiquing goes, I wouldn't discount that fans of immersive sims probably have higher standards than plain FPS fans. With Half-Life you can just throw random cool things and stuff to shoot together and everyone's happy. When a System Shock fan loads up a System Shock mod, they're reasonably going to expect something System Shock-like.

[67415cf0b235cMarvin]

Actually I saw Christine online here a few days ago, and she posted recently over at TTLG as well.

Really? Cool, does she still work on FMs?

[67415cf0b258achuckles n chestnuts]

Well, all of what you had said after my last post Marvin, Zylon, and icemann is all great input and I appreciate it.  Yeah, Marvin, now knowing what you said about alot of the authors leaving the scene, I see why others are a little more critical of my FM like this it makes more sense now (whether objective or not though, the critique came strong and some of it to a degree was subjective but that happens in most cases anyways I'll admit).

And yeah Zylon, I was heavily in the half life 2 community for years and published about 6 maps or so some for my multiplayer server and some for single player storylines, and yes your right, as long as it isn't blatantly lazy people generally seem to like it.  And I can see where the more intricate critique will come with the system shock universe whereas system shock is obviously much more intricate in terms of player choices than a purely linear FPS that is mostly just shoot and think style like half life universe is.

And icemann, yeah I suppose I honestly thought all community mediums where the same, as blind as that may sound that is the truth (being this is only the second modding community I have ever been involved with and half life community was the first ever).  And also icemann, what you said about a sentence on the internet being read many different ways is very true; its hard to convey emotion and intent and delivery of message using typed words, so as for me personally that is why I try to be as cordial and straight forward as possible only using sarcasm and humor if I either know the other person well or if the intent just based on reading is fairly obvious (but then again obvious to some might not be to others).

But yeah all three of you had good points, its nice to see some straight forward positive feedback that is obviously positive for a change on my post!