SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[674505102156fXkilljoy98]

Yes, we get it, you have very low standards for game design.

No, I at least don't have impossible to meet standards and don't hate everything I play.

Stuff like music is an issue, this stuff isn't really

[674505102172cvoodoo47]

there are people around who already have grandchildren.

speaking of details, noticed anything out of ordinary in my previous post?

[6745051021946Xkilljoy98]

voodoo47Damn, but no I hadn't noticed anything

[6745051021a3fvoodoo47]

well see whether you can find the hidden message.

[6745051021cf1Berathraben]

Xkilljoy98
44

[6745051022261sarge945]

Was this game literally made by toddlers?

In the complete absence of any in-game justification for such a feature, I think it's an entirely appropriate reaction.

Just the devs yet again throwing in some nonsensical "cool" thing with zero regard for whether it actually makes any sense.

I feel personally attacked by this relatable content

[6745051022662la0s]

I just played some of the backer beta. My prior criticisms still stand, this is still a badly directed game, made by people with questionable design taste (to be nice). Often when trying to remix or change an old idea, they fuck it up.

One okay addition I found was the weapon upgrades, at least the one time I encountered it.

The beta with 2 in combat feels pretty hard, it looks like a shooter, but doesn't play like one. It is more deliberate and fiddly, that might be cool, but for new players, with experience from Bioshock, it might be a problem. The game spawns a lot of enemies, in Research it loves to drop in Sec-Bots, but is stingy with ammo and med patches. It feels a bit unbalanced for normal, I would say.

Anyway, my main point is, that I encouraged a friend to play the demo. His experience really confirmed one of my "fears". This is a really hard game to get in to and play. He had trouble finding out what to do, where to go, and remembering where he had been. Identifying important items, navigating the inventory, understanding the vaporize/game economy and so on. He told me, that this game seemed like it was made only for people who had played it before.

He is by no means a novice, even if immersive sims aren't his jam.

I think that is going to be a massive problem for them, the game is extremely bad at teaching how its systems work and most of all what to do. It is almost as if the game, by adopting a lot of modern conveniences, seems schizophrenic in how it is old school in other ways. It is simply not consistent. I think they should have put in an objective system, a way for the keycodes to pop up, when you approach a relevant keypad (or have a place to list them) and so on. I think that would help new players a lot, because this game is really hard to get in to. There's this strange feel about the game, where it is informed by a lot of what has happened since Shock 1 came out, and has adopted some of it, which makes the omissions feel way worse. You have a crafting system, you have your "interactive intro", inventory management, weapon upgrades, "cool" player character animations and so on, but in other ways it is really old school. I would've prefered everything being old school and congruent.. this is so uneven and confusing.

Which leads me to agreeing with the points in the videos Zylonbane posted, the game feels more confusing and less obvious to play.

Also one last gripe, why the fuck is the death and reviving animations unskippable. It is very tedious to rewatch them over and over (yup I suck).

[6745051022d7fXkilljoy98]

I just played some of the backer beta. My prior criticisms still stand, this is still a badly directed game, made by people with questionable design taste (to be nice). Often when trying to remix or change an old idea, they fuck it up.

One okay addition I found was the weapon upgrades, at least the one time I encountered it.

The beta with 2 in combat feels pretty hard, it looks like a shooter, but doesn't play like one. It is more deliberate and fiddly, that might be cool, but for new players, with experience from Bioshock, it might be a problem. The game spawns a lot of enemies, in Research it loves to drop in Sec-Bots, but is stingy with ammo and med patches. It feels a bit unbalanced for normal, I would say.

Anyway, my main point is, that I encouraged a friend to play the demo. His experience really confirmed one of my "fears". This is a really hard game to get in to and play. He had trouble finding out what to do, where to go, and remembering where he had been. Identifying important items, navigating the inventory, understanding the vaporize/game economy and so on. He told me, that this game seemed like it was made only for people who had played it before.

He is by no means a novice, even if immersive sims aren't his jam.

I think that is going to be a massive problem for them, the game is extremely bad at teaching how it's systems work and most of all what to do. It is almost as if the game, by adopting a lot of modern conveniences, seems schizophrenic in how it is old school in other ways. It is simply not consistent. I think they should have put in an objective system, a way for the keycodes to pop up, when you approach a relevant keypad (or have a place to list them) and so on. I think that would help new players a lot, because this game is really hard to get in to. There's this strange feel about the game, where it is informed by a lot of what has happened since Shock 1 came out, and has adopted some of it, which makes the omissions feel way worse. You have a crafting system, you have your "interactive intro", inventory management, weapon upgrades, "cool" player character animations and so on, but in other ways it is really old school. I would've prefered everything being old school and congruent.. this is so uneven and confusing.

Which leads me to agreeing with the points in the videos Zylonbane posted, the game feels more confusing and less obvious to play.

Also one last gripe, why the fuck is the death and reviving animations unskippable. It is very tedious to rewatch them over and over (yup I suck).

To me as someone who has played SS1, this doesn't seem any more confusion or less obvious to play or navigate, so IMO if anyone has issues with the remake, they would also have issues with SS1 and how it plays.

The gameplay loop is the same and the layouts are overall the same and the added detail doesn't make it harder to go around especially with some changed up areas. Sure pick ups can be less obvious but aren't hard to find imo.

Animation wise there should be an option to turn it off but it isn't too long that it annoyed me

Tho I am also someone that knows SS1 like the back of her hand so I can't speak for new players, but as a SS1 player I found it about the same/just as easy/hard as that game, and in the original game I knew what to do mainly via audio logs and exploring every inch of levels.

I agree that it was harder than expected the first time though but got easier as I learned the game more.

Also Story 1 is more guided but it has yet to be added tho having codes stored in your UI would be ideal yeah

For me, after playing it, I enjoyed it more than I expected, but I stand by some issues like it needs an original OST option, some enemies and levels need to look more like they did originally, and the cut weapons should have been in the game.

[67450510232c0Autz]

To me as someone who has played SS1, this doesn't seem any more confusion or less obvious to play or navigate, so IMO if anyone has issues with the remake, they would also have issues with SS1 and how it plays

One of the points of the remake wasn't to fix that? Making it more accesible for audiences that don't want to switch their brains to "90s-mode" while playing this?

[6745051023547Xkilljoy98]

One of the points of the remake wasn't to fix that? Making it more accesible for audiences that don't want to switch their brains to "90s-mode" while playing this?

I mean fair, tho again story 1 is said to be more guided but isn't in the beta yet

Tho ideally there should be an option for more guided stuff yeah, IK not everyone will have an issue with it as is (I didn't have any issues playing SS1 for the first time back in 2015), but some will

[6745051023725la0s]

I have played System Shock since it was released in '94 numerous times, and know it very well. I of course feel kinda home here, but there is something about this remake and it's presentation, that makes it more confusing.

However my points above are mainly about new players. I think this game will get slammed by reviewers.

Something that might be worth discussing, is how Nightdive perceives System Shock 1. Kick has repeatedly called it a survival horror game, it seems almost like the way Ken Levine kept calling Bioshock a SHOOTER, to not scare away the audience (it of course also turned out to be mainly a shooter).
For me, even on harder settings, the original game and also Shock 2 (though to a lesser extent) encouraged exploration. Shock 1 was part first person adventure game, along with everything else. I feel like this remake is tuned so much to be a survival horror game, that it might discourage players from exploring. I might be wrong, but when you are restrained on resources, and the game is pretty eager to spawn hard enemies, the way you play become more careful. You might not feel inclined to go exploring. That might be fine, but I think it needs to be balanced a bit.

[6745051023b2cXkilljoy98]

I have played System Shock since it was released in '94 numerous times, and know it very well. I of course feel kinda home here, but there is something about this remake and it's presentation, that makes it more confusing.

However my points above are mainly about new players. I think this game will get slammed by reviewers.

Something that might be worth discussing, is how Nightdive perceives System Shock 1. Kick has repeatedly called it a survival horror game, it seems almost like the way Ken Levine kept calling Bioshock a SHOOTER, to not scare away the audience (it of course also turned out to be mainly a shooter).
For me, even on harder settings, the original game and also Shock 2 (though to a lesser extent) encouraged exploration. Shock 1 was part first person adventure game, along with everything else. I feel like this remake is tuned so much to be a survival horror game, that it might discourage players from exploring. I might be wrong, but when you are restrained on resources, and the game is pretty eager to spawn hard enemies, the way you play become more careful. You might not feel inclined to go exploring. That might be fine, but I think it needs to be balanced a bit.

To each their own I guess but I played the beta and my knowledge of SS1 helped me beat it no problem, so idk

But yeah I think calling SS1 a Survival Horror game isn't accurate at all (same with calling Bioshock a Shooter), it gives a false idea of what the game is like and maybe that is why they got rid of the original music, idk

And yeah SS1 and all Immersive Sim games encourage exploration.

For me I did have difficulty at times my first time through, though playing it more, it got easier, and I never felt discouraged from exploring but rather actively explore to get more stuff.

Maybe it is a difference in how we both played it idk.

[6745051023dd7la0s]

It might be a difference in play style.

I mean if I just game the restoration function, it of course becomes easier, but I like to avoid dying. Another point is, that the melee combat is so extremely unreliable, that it is laughable. The game becomes easier when you get the sparq. However to me it is a problem, that you can loose so much health to a mutant or a repairbot, if you try to melee them. You can't engage in combat with a melee weapon an be confident in the outcome, because the melee-system is piss poor.

I think the game wants you to use the melee weapons for easier enemies, or at least, I play the game that way, but seemingly random factors makes that a very tricky strategy.

For example in Medical, I wanted to run to the healing bed from the elevator bulkhead doors, however the game had spawned four mutants and two cyborg drones outside the bulkhead door, and two more mutants outside the room with the healing bed. Dealing with four mutants alone with the wrench/pipe wasn't a problem in Shock 1, now two alone is very tricky and costs a lot of health. If you are low on ammo or power, then it becomes tricky. The original shock and shock 2, made a melee approach possible. You could be confident that you could manage it, not so in this remake.

Of course the original games didn't spawn so aggressively did they?

In a way the remake spawns enemies like it was an action game, but forces you to play it more like a survival horror game. Of course it might just be a beta bug, and me being unlucky with the dice rolls

By the way is it me, or have they coded the melee weapons almost like they were hit scanning weapons? In that you only hit precisely where the cursor is pointed? In other games there's a larger hit box on melee weapons that simulate the swing of the weapon? Here swing and the specific point of impact are separate. It seems like the swing is only 1. an animation and 2. a way to show how hard your hit/wind up. I experienced being hit by a mutant, which moved my aim, so it was a couple of pixels beside the head of the mutant, which caused the swing not to hit at all. Also distance seems off, the mutants can get hits in while you aren't in range.

If that is the case, that is pretty poor implementation of a solved problem.

[6745051024305Creamy]

Also distance seems off, the mutants can get hits in while you aren't in range.

This may sound silly, but have you changed your in-game FOV at all? I'm wondering if the perceived distance is affected by altering it, essentially creating the illusion that you're closer or further away than you actually are.

[6745051024447la0s]

Yes I have. I always play with a larger FOV. It is necessary here, because I have a ultra wide display, and the game doesn't render to this natively it seems, but chops off top and bottom (or maybe I just misinterpret that, because "top and bottom" are clearly visible on the save game thumbnails).

Thank you for your reply.

[6745051024587Creamy]

I use an ultrawide too, so I know where you're coming from. The game appears to calculate FOV vertically (hence why 120 or so feels 'good' and not, say, 90 as would be the case in most games from my experience) and adjusts the weapon view model accordingly. Therefore, the wider the FOV, the more 'zoomed out' your perspective relative to your weapon. I'm wondering if this has the knock-on effect of making it hard to judge distance to enemies.

[6745051024677la0s]

That could be it, it feels unpredictable. How does the game register hit area with, say, the pipe? Is it an area or where the reticule is pointed?

[6745051024792Creamy]

I'm unsure, I'm not a developer on the project at all. I want to say it feels like it's dependent on where the reticle is, but don't quote me on that.

[67450510248b0la0s]

Sure, thank you for replying and taking the time. It just feels like if you happen to aim a bit outside of an enemy, you don't hit. I am open to it being me being bad at melee, but I hope it gets fixed.

[6745051024b06la0s]

I'm unsure, I'm not a developer on the project at all.

If you don’t mind btw. what did you work on?

[6745051024c30Creamy]

I'm just one of the Discord moderators, though I did some additional testing and consulting work on PowerSlave: Exhumed as it's a game I know inside out as much as you folks know Shock.

[6745051025178la0s]

Ah okay. Cool.

To each their own I guess but I played the beta and my knowledge of SS1 helped me beat it no problem, so idk

But yeah I think calling SS1 a Survival Horror game isn't accurate at all (same with calling Bioshock a Shooter), it gives a false idea of what the game is like and maybe that is why they got rid of the original music, idk

And yeah SS1 and all Immersive Sim games encourage exploration.

For me I did have difficulty at times my first time through, though playing it more, it got easier, and I never felt discouraged from exploring but rather actively explore to get more stuff.

Maybe it is a difference in how we both played it idk.

Okay, I stand corrected. After turning of the robot production on Research and fighting off the 6-7 sec-bots cluttered outside the respawn point, I got a foothold, and from there it has turned more managable (I know it is a beta). The reactor level btw. looks pretty good, and for me strikes a good balance in creating a challenge for the player that doesn't seem unfair.

[67450510255e5Xkilljoy98]

Ah okay. Cool.

Okay, I stand corrected. After turning of the robot production on Research and fighting off the 6-7 sec-bots cluttered outside the respawn point, I got a foothold, and from there it has turned more managable (I know it is a beta). The reactor level btw. looks pretty good, and for me strikes a good balance in creating a challenge for the player that doesn't seem unfair.

Oh ok yeah, the robots can respawn a lot if you don't turn off production

I assumed you had beaten it, but it sounds like you are still on the laser mission

Also on the subject of melee, I didn't have too much issue with it, tho I didn't use it too much so far, and I agree that having a bit more range would be nice

[6745051025c2bsverXRazum]

By the way is it me, or have they coded the melee weapons almost like they were hit scanning weapons? In that you only hit precisely where the cursor is pointed? In other games there's a larger hit box on melee weapons that simulate the swing of the weapon? Here swing and the specific point of impact are separate. It seems like the swing is only 1. an animation and 2. a way to show how hard your hit/wind up. I experienced being hit by a mutant, which moved my aim, so it was a couple of pixels beside the head of the mutant, which caused the swing not to hit at all. Also distance seems off, the mutants can get hits in while you aren't in range.

If that is the case, that is pretty poor implementation of a solved problem.

I tested it and no, it's not just an animation to hide poor melee combat. You can still hit enemy while looking other way and direction of a swing actually matter although attack hitbox is a bit confusing. I think it could (and I hope it will) be tweaked by making it wider and longer (like 1.6 m) giving player a bit more space for attack. Even with 2m attack range just like in the original it will still remain your starting melee weapon and you will still be looking for a gun.