SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[6745c397e7094sgupta]

I don't get it why "different from the original would be a good thing" in this context. Better is of course better, but why does it have to be different?
Ideally the remake would feel and be the same as the original for new players that haven't played the original.

There will be entertaining misunderstoodments between people that have played the original and those that have only played the remake.

Feel the same, yes.  What I mean is, I don't think all the traps need to be exactly the same.  We already have SSEE for that, so *to me* (and only speaking for myself), if that means changing some of the traps up or having new areas trapped and previous trap areas safe, that could be pretty exciting, especially the first playthrough.  This isn't a dealbreaker for me either way; I'm just in the hybrid camp of wanting it to feel faithful to the original (which I agree the pre-hiatus version did not, but this does to me so far) but still wanting some expansions, changes, etc. where it makes sense.  I completely respect more originalist opinions, though.  I just like the idea of not knowing exactly what to expect the first time through, similar to how I felt playing the original game that first time. 

[6745c397e7a0esgupta]

Apologies on being a bit more on the negative side in regards to the latest KS update, but I'm a bit mixed on the Cyborg Surgeon. Now for one thing, having more enemies = great for me. But the look of the surgeon, with the scanner distinctly propelling out from the head does not jell with me from a System Shock perspective.

Why? Well it's more in a body horror direction, which from memory neither System Shock 1 or 2 had. Well SS2 sort of did with the Hybrids. It's more in line with that "Virus" movie that someone mentioned a while ago. That said, it makes absolute perfect sense that she (Shodan) would make something like that. I mean she definitely would. It's just that they didn't have enemies that looked like that, with body horror gore going on. Geiger-esque.

Now you could say, well Origin didn't have the tech to make stuff like that back then, which is completely valid. I'm just saying what I think when I look at it. In the case of this one, with it being a new enemy entirely there is no point of reference to refer to. When I look at the designs of the other enemies though, none went body horror direction. Again though the original's enemies were displayed as 2D sprites which you could only go into so much (at that resolution) level of detail, but yeah. It could also be with the image being in black and white that it looks so off putting to me. In color I'm sure it looks better.

Much of the Cyborg enemies in SS1 were Borg inspired, which if you look to that in Star Trek:

Is less gory. Am I making sense? I suck at articulation. On a positive note - That thing would look spooky as hell in action.

I'm biased as I really like body horror quite a lot, and the designs so far have really creeped me out (honestly more than most games have done with enemy designs).  I would guess Robb Waters designed the new surgeon, but I also don't 100% know that - I just know he makes most of the concepts.  I do think engine limitations didn't make this type of horror a possibility back during the original release, so I guess that's why it doesn't bother me they're going in that direction with some things; I think a scarier System Shock will be fun and certainly got that vibe from the Unity demo way back as well.  You're right, though - the original enemies do strike me as more borg-like and less pure horror (but TNG was also a more family-friendly show, and they were still pretty dark for that context).  Citadel certainly has its share of bloody writing, decapitated heads, and horrific log descriptions, so for me, body horror isn't that much of a stretch.

I also like the idea of an exceedingly creepy non-hostile enemy going about its business and the player deciding whether to kill or spare it.  (Even more interesting might if there were some consequences to that choice, but then that may be approaching BioShock too closely, and I have no idea what those consequences could be.)  I do agree I'll be very interested in seeing this thing in color and more detail, but I like the design.  (I liked the oversized eye on the drone too, though, and I know that got a pretty mixed reaction.)

[6745c397e7beaicemann]

For me it feels less like "System Shock" and more Hellraiser or Silent Hill.

Like if you've seen the film Hellraiser - Hell on Earth, that had a DJ turned demon that had a CD player embedded inside it, that it used to pop out CDs, which it then threw (ninja style) at the good guys. Quite a cool demon honestly. Just more body horror direction than what you would get normally if you were to see it in a cyberpunk game.

[6745c397e7f4bsgupta]

For me it feels less like "System Shock" and more Hellraiser or Silent Hill.

Like if you've seen the film Hellraiser - Hell on Earth, that had a DJ turned demon that had a CD player embedded inside it, that it used to pop out CDs, which it then threw (ninja style) at the good guys. Quite a cool demon honestly. Just more body horror direction than what you would get normally if you were to see it in a cyberpunk game.

I get what you're saying, even though it doesn't quite strike me like that since the Hellraiser/Silent Hill monsters are supernatural in origin (even if tech is somehow incorporated) whereas SHODAN's creatures are clearly still technological experimentation.  [I haven't seen that Hellraiser, but was able to look up the demon.]  But I get the more general "vibe" being similar to those and don't disagree.  As mentioned previously, it also seems a lot like some of the creature designs for Virus (which was a strong point in that particular movie to me).  Doom Patrol also had something late in the first season called The Operators which reminds me a bit of what the surgeon could be like as well (in how they acted more than how they looked).  I think the body horror elements are something people may be divided on as it's one of those things you either like or you don't, which is fair.

[6745c397e80f3icemann]

Personally I love it, but the catch being that I love it in the right context.

For Silent Hill it goes hand in hand. It's supposed to be demonic, so body horror makes perfect sense. With cyberpunk it depends on the game. Observer for example, sure. That game has some messed up shit going on + as the game goes on the lines between reality (which in itself is Bladerunner style cyberpunk) and dreams (where anything goes) start to blur and blend together. So to me it makes perfect sense there. For System Shock no. I don't think it belongs there.

Of course as I said earlier, from a logical standpoint I would say that if System Shock were real, Shodan would very much make stuff like that, but in the games they didn't design them that way. And that is the difference.

It also creates a design problem, as if you stick to more traditional cyberpunk stuff, and then randomly have 1 enemy that is instead body horror (Silent Hill) style, then people are going to go "huh? Why's that in the game?" as it stands out.

[6745c397e8319sgupta]

That's fair.  It doesn't help that you had to use your imagination quite a lot in the original because of the sprites.  =oP  But I agree they weren't quite as clearly body horror with things in their eye sockets, etc., though as I said, I love that style in general and I'm personally good with a more horrific version this time out, especially if it makes sense in the lore.  But that's just personal opinion/preference, and I completely respect people who feel otherwise.

We'll certainly need to see more enemy types, etc. to see how well they fit in with one another, but so far given the mutants, serv-BOTs, and cyborgs we've seen [concept wise], I think things seem to fit okay.  Some are grosser than others, but you could say the same about the original game/SS2.  A Serv-BOT isn't going to be as gross looking as a Virus Mutant, for example, even in the original.  (And the Midwives in 2 I'd consider body horror as well - those things terrified me back in the day, but it's true that isn't the same game as SS1 either.) 

hehe I enjoyed Observer - it scared the $&#$ out of me in places, but it was a fun ride.  (RIP Rutger Hauer, who just died yesterday unfortunately.)

I'm really looking forward to seeing the Security Bot Daniel teased in the dev stream for next month. 

[6745c397e84a1edx]

August update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598858095/system-shock/posts/2586033

[6745c397e8592edx]

The Maze of the Space Minotaur?

That was the retro game that was at the center of the failed The Black Glove kickstarter game, interesting seeing it survive in some form.

[6745c397e866dicemann]

The 7th Guest 3 failing to get the funds for its KS was the biggest disappintment for me.

[6745c397e88a0icemann]

The gamepig game "The Maze of the Space Minotaur" looks AWESOME:

Much like the mini-game you'd find on PC's in Observer, I can see myself playing that a lot.

Autobombs look to be turning out good:

Concept:

Model:

And the cyborg assassin's got a rework to be a bit more assassin-y:

Maintenance level looking good too:

[6745c397e8a65ZylonBane]

I'd somehow never noticed before that the Autobomb is totally a Big Trak.

[6745c397e8bf9icemann]

Always reminded me more of those black small moving droids from Star Wars. Tried googling for an image of one to show what I mean, but can't find anything.

Chewy growls at one in A New Hope, whilst in the Death Star and it runs off. Must....find.....image.....grrrrr.

[edit]
Ok found one.

I have no idea what that droid is called.

The one on the left. Just less lego and more robot.

[edit 2]
And found a gif of the bit:

[6745c397e8d1bZylonBane]

Yup, definitely more a Big Trak than that thing.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/MSE-6-series_repair_droid

Aside from the different body shape, it only has two sets of wheels.

[6745c397e901aRocketMan]

Maintenance is bang on, except they need to dim the lights considerably for the final build.

[6745c397e914esgupta]

In response to some discussion about Maintenance level darkness on the Discord:

 

And I agree the GamePig looks awesome!  =) 
[EBQ2f3PUwAADn4s.jpg expired]

[6745c397e927eedx]

September Update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598858095/system-shock/posts/2615923

[6745c397e9385ZylonBane]

I still think treating SSR as a "retro" game is a terrible mistake, but they seem too committed to the idea now to back off from it.

[6745c397e94e9Nameless Voice]

I have no idea why they are forcing an arbitrary restriction on texel and texture size upon their artists.  It doesn't help anyone, it just makes a lot of extra work for them, and all with the end goal of... making the game look kind of blurry?

[6745c397e9602ZylonBane]

It's like they think they're making Bit.Trip Hacker or something.

The original System Shock did the absolute best it could with the graphical technology available when it was made. It was looking forward, not backward. To push the "lol retro" aesthetic in the remake is to essentially treat System Shock as a joke.

[6745c397e979cicemann]

My only issue is that for a more supposed 1 to 1 remake we keep getting completely new / revamped to the point of being completely new enemies.

Take the new Shock Bot:

Completely new enemy which admittedly looks awesome, but I'd have preferred to have seen the Cortex Reaver.

And the Cyborg Warrior is made up of that new design:

[6745c397e9877icemann]

Now with that said I dont mind the new look.

[6745c397e9a50sgupta]

I remember when the original Unity demo was released, it seemed the feedback was pretty evenly split (from what I could see) between people who loved the lower poly look and people who really didn't.  Most of the opinions in either direction were pretty passionate.

I'm in the camp who really digs it (dug it in the Unity demo and now in the preview assets).  I think restricting pixel density is an interesting way to boost creativity within those limits to get a result that's more unique.  Sometimes unrestricted art (or engineering for that matter) ends up less interesting/creative than something with certain restrictions put in place, and I think that's what they're going for.  I also think the original game's art direction and color palette really lends itself to it.  I fully respect this is completely subjective and quite controversial, though.  At the end of the day, I think it'll give the game a look that stands apart from most everything else, and for me that's a good thing.  I still think it'll be beautiful to look at, just in a less conventional way than people are used to.

[6745c397e9ce6sgupta]

Regarding the enemies, I think the way they're mixing and matching to create some of the cyborgs is really clever and interesting, though I agree this is a departure from the original designs.  Though if you look at the original Flier Bot and the Sec-2 Bot, the ShockBot to me feels like a sort of hybrid between the two with the ability to be either. 

If you look at the other image of the family tree:

The last one feels more like the Sec-1 Bot, although it too is a departure in some ways, though I dig the industrial look and I like the designs overall - it feels *really* beefy.  I do hope we still see some more bot-types like the Executive Bot, etc.  (I have wonder if the "guy" next to Diego is a Working-Joe [from Alien Isolation] style android, but I have no idea - it may just be a very basic human without the detail.)

If I had one constructive critique, it's that the ShockBot and the Cyborg Warrior are a bit too similar in that the latter is just the (incredibly cool, mind you) skull portion on top of the ShockBot.  It's still really neat looking IMO, but I hope there's something pretty significantly different to them over "stock" ShockBots.  That could very well be behavior instead of appearance (I'm imagining a really horrifying scream and a much more lumbering and organic behavior to them).  Personally, if I were designing it...and I'm no artist...I might get rid of that whole center torso section and have the skull section and a few more organics in place of the chest cavity...but that's just an armchair idea.   

Overall, I'm really happy with this update, and I can't wait to see some more.

[6745c397ea0b8icemann]

I'm in the camp who really digs it (dug it in the Unity demo and now in the preview assets).  I think restricting pixel density is an interesting way to boost creativity within those limits to get a result that's more unique.  Sometimes unrestricted art (or engineering for that matter) ends up less interesting/creative than something with certain restrictions put in place, and I think that's what they're going for. 

I'm 100% with ya on this one. Having to work with restricted limitations can bring about some of the best stuff. If you look to the old games of the 80s - 90s developers were confined to working within severe memory limitations, which ended up resulting in good things since developers made the best of what they could within that.

On the bots, I can see where their going with it, in that it's meant as a foundation for several of the other enemies. So you need A, before you can do B & C. That sort of thing.