SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[67429882d63d0Nameless Voice]

There's another update on Kickstarter

Our goal is to have the gameplay somewhere between System Shock 1 and System Shock 2, with sprinkles of BioShock on top

[67429882d659cJoin2]

I'm optimistically assuming the Bioshock comment is just smart marketing and not actually their true intention. There's next to nothing gameplay-wise that Bioshock did that SS2 didn't already do and do better, of course.
If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear what they think in Bioshock has value and can be applied to System Shock. AI is less buggy than in SS2, that's one. Struggling to find anything else of value here...

[67429882d6705Hikari]

I would bring up the element of choice (bioshock 2 did a HELL of a lot better in that regard than the original) but to be honest, system shock infinite did that one better with a less capible engine the fanbase had to fight with the whole way.

[67429882d6884Join2]

Huh? How is the element of choice of Bioshock or SS: Infinite superior to SS2 itself? I suppose SS: Infinite has more choice but its not necessarily "better" choice as it forces you to build a jack of all trades build, which I consider to be inferior choice as it is less meaningful; less required specialization, less strategy, less replayability. But hey, I haven't played the mod in full. Anyhow, Bioshock I have played in full, and the choice in that game is significantly meaningless and less extensive at that.

(bioshock 2 did a HELL of a lot better in that regard than the original)

Bioshock 2 is a straight up rehash of Bioshock 1, and adds very little of anything at all. You can wield plasmids and guns at the same time, about the only notable increase in available gameplay choice.

[67429882d6acaHikari]

I was refering the ending having at least a few more subtlties than Bioshock 1's 'jesus/hitler' choice.

ALso, Minerva's Den. I wished more fo the game's storytelling felt like that.

(will edit post to contain better argument about Infinite's improvements to vanilla on choice. Dogs're going nuts due to fireworks. AFK)

Edit:
Shock Infintie does a hell of a lot better than Vanilla in the choice department since it gives you alliances you can make that have very real consiquences not just on how you personally grow (but are not completely locked into) but also affect how the game plays (mostly depending on enemies you fight, the kind of allies you have, or if you get any pre-researched goodies.)

Then there's the fact Shock Infinite has a sort of modular ending system where you can get a series of ending cenematics that sorta go together if you do everything for the 'golden' ending, along with nonstandard endings depending on if you decide to take different paths.

All without explicitly locking you into any single growth path allowing you to go about tackling the results of your choices as you see fit. I suggest giving Infinite a spin now that it's complete. It has rough edges and one can always find ways to improve.

Also infinite does cyberspace well given engine limits in my personal opinion.


I've recommended NightDive looks to infinite in the past and do so again, though I would prefer they look at it as 'look what we did when pushing shock2 about as far as the engine will go' than 'this is what we want shock1 to be' because I like shock1's more implant centric approach to upgrades as opposed to stats.

I have to say I like the 'shoot mode' hud elements as seen in the mockups, informative but stays out of the way so you can see what's happening. I'm very concerned about the inventory hud.

Looking forward to when the revised demo/patch hits.

[67429882d6c15Join2]

Ah, plot "C&C", if you can call it that. To kill or not to kill the little sisters and get a different ending. I suppose Shock could benefit from some more of the subtly executed plot-related choices seen in Shock 2. For example Shock 2 has an optional shuttle cargo bay you can go into where Shodan asserts her authority over you. More intelligent design like that would be beneficial, more so than the obtuse method of Press X to kill girl w/control-robbing anim, and get different crappy ending as a result. So nah, Shock 2 does plot-centric choices better too. Can't speak for SS: Infinite though.

[67429882d7192Join2]

Edit:
Shock Infintie does a hell of a lot better than Vanilla in the choice department since it gives you alliances you can make that have very real consiquences not just on how you personally grow (but are not completely locked into) but also affect how the game plays (mostly depending on enemies you fight, the kind of allies you have, or if you get any pre-researched goodies.)

Interactive allies.
System Shock.
Pick one.

Then there's the fact Shock Infinite has a sort of modular ending system where you can get a series of ending cenematics that sorta go together if you do everything for the 'golden' ending, along with nonstandard endings depending on if you decide to take different paths.

I don't have a problem with this, if the execution is good.

All without explicitly locking you into any single growth path allowing you to go about tackling the results of your choices as you see fit. I suggest giving Infinite a spin now that it's complete. It has rough edges and one can always find ways to improve.

The gameplay destroyed any chance of me appreciating other aspects of the mod. However, cyberspace levels later on look like something special. Shame I'll never experience it.

I've recommended NightDive looks to infinite in the past and do so again, though I would prefer they look at it as 'look what we did when pushing shock2 about as far as the engine will go' than 'this is what we want shock1 to be' because I like shock1's more implant centric approach to upgrades as opposed to stats.

I hope they ignored you, based from what I experienced. For something that pushes Shock in the right direction I can recommend Secmod.

[67429882d73d1Hikari]

Give the current version a spin since you said it'd been ages and it looked like you said the version you played was an in progress build. I'll give you it's not for everyone but a lot of work got put into it. So if you don't like it hey no worries. I pointed NIghtDive at it for the endings, the way enviroments can be changed by layer choice (picking which timelines to merge,) cyberspace was challenging fun and the architecture was inventive, and because the shodan/last level is jawdroping in my opinion (shodan was turned into a puzzle boss for one and the sense of scope and scale was made a lot grander for another.) At an absolute minamum go skim a let's play for the highlight reel/look at the interesting bits.

As for the new update on kickstarter? I'm hopeful the changes made to demo mean that this udate will have togglable screen effects as opposed to forced triliniar filtering (I dislike triliniar filtering anyway because it turns things into an even blobbier mess on top of the performance hit I'd take to things being forced on.)

I for one like the slightly curved UI but I'm still gravely skeptical of how inventory is managed. That you can store things in crates will allow for some mitigation of inventory space concerns (forcing you to memorize where those cache's are unless you can pull up annotized maps or a 'notes' subpage to leave yourself messages on which stash on what decks contain what.)

As said before I'm eagerly waiting on how this rolls. That they're communicating this readily is a good sign, and i"m hopeful this level of communicating keeps up post kickstarter, (mentioned that in the initial request for feedback thread way the hell back.)

[67429882d75b3Join2]

SS: Infinite is fine as it's own standalone thing, but what do you hope to achieve by recommending NightDive check it out as inspiration for the reboot? To have allies to form and interact with in System Shock? Forced auto aim? Odd, highly questionable design choices like pop-up tutorials and grenade-immune hybrids?

I pointed NIghtDive at it for the endings, the way enviroments can be changed by layer choice (picking which timelines to merge,) cyberspace was challenging fun and the architecture was inventive, and because the shodan/last level is jawdroping in my opinion (shodan was turned into a puzzle boss for one and the sense of scope and scale was made a lot grander for another.) At an absolute minamum go skim a let's play for the highlight reel/look at the interesting bits.

Fair enough, those sound like good things contrary to the things I pointed out above.
I have already checked out the Cyberspace in a LP, and I found it impressive, but the above complaints still no doubt apply. I don't care if anything is covered by the plot, e.g hybrids are immune to grenades because NANOMACHiNES!, that's never a good idea in the first place for shock as it forces you build a jack of all trades character (and thereby actually reducing choice) and is just not immersive, consistent nor intuitive design. 

[67429882d76afHikari]

I getcha. The point is to take the best from fan attempts at extending the life of the franchise and seeing if they can incorporate and improve further without it becoming a mess.

[67429882d7a65Kolya]

There's another update on Kickstarter

Our goal is to have the gameplay somewhere between System Shock 1 and System Shock 2, with sprinkles of BioShock on top

They did actually say what they meant with Bioshock sprinkles in brackets right after
the quote above:

(rich melee attacks and ranged weapons, vending machines, upgrades, and damage types). If there’s enough of a demand, we’ll add a “Classic Mode” to one of the stretch goals that disables all RPG stuff as an option.

[67429882d7badDKDArtagnan]

"Classic Mode" shouldn't be a stretch goal, though. That absolutely needs to be there no matter what, if they change the core mechanics significantly.

As much as I think "purists" can hold this remake back for the wrong reasons, there's no need to completely ignore their needs.

[67429882d7cffZylonBane]

So the sprinkles of Bioshock are actually sprinkles of SS2, plus whatever a "rich melee attack" is.

[67429882d7e1dDKDArtagnan]

Unless those things were meant to clarify what they mean by adding things from both SS2 and BIO, and not just the BIO part. It's not quite clear from where I'm sitting.

But, by all means, let's get pedantic for no reason. That would be the "dry wit" part, right?

[67429882d82a6ThiefsieFool]

So the sprinkles of Bioshock are actually sprinkles of SS2, plus whatever a "rich melee attack" is.

Well they seem to have forgotten you already had damage types in SS1 so yeah.. they might mean ammo types but SS1 has that too so it must be ammo types with different damage types if anything, as for rich melee attacks I'll pass on a lead pipe that has a 10% chance of freezing servbots

If there’s enough of a demand, we’ll add a “Classic Mode” to one of the stretch goals that disables all RPG stuff as an option.

Where's the stretch goal to make "Classic Mode" the primary effort and RPG elements second?

[67429882d83d4Hikari]

For all my want to see what new things can be done... I want them to start with a simple 'port the game over with a modern control setup and some new dialog since you already have the voice actors in the booth.' Everything after that is gravey since after that you fall back on having a full game.

[67429882d853fvoodoo47]

so if I understand it correctly, it's classic mode unless the rpg stretch is reached, then it's rpg mode unless a (not yet specified) next stretch is reached, and then it's both. better than nothing I suppose.

[67429882d886aRocketMan]

Fundamental flaw in thinking:  Having a classic "mode" at all.  Put a sprinkles mode in there if you want an alternative.

[67429882d89ebZanderat]

I think they should make the game they  want.  The way it looks to me is if the stretch goals are not met, then it will pretty faithful t classic SS1 with some moderate changes.  If the "RPG" level is met the it will be (probably) SS2 like.  If the "classic" stretch goal is met we will have a version of BI's 1999 mode that will be  SS1 with no game play changes.

[67429882d8c58ZylonBane]

If the "classic" stretch goal is met we will have a version of BI's 1999 mode that will be  SS1 with no game play changes.

This analogy doesn't even begin to make sense.

[67429882d8d4fZanderat]

Maybe.  But I think you understand my point.

[67429882d8e62ThiefsieFool]

You'd have to specify that the feature set wouldn't be something as pathetic as this but rather something with profound changes to both balance and levels http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/1999_Mode#Effects

[67429882d8f6dJoin2]

^well, I wouldn't call that pathetic, some good changes there, but it certainly is very simplistic and not representative of SS2 as it pretends it is by being named "1999 mode". Bit of a sad joke from Irrational there.

[67429882d907fDjant]

Meh, the changes there just make it sound like an "ultra hard difficulty" mode, which is the sort of difficulty setting I don't like. I prefer for difficulty levels to drastically change what strategies a player uses in the game through some smart limitations, not just "oh, have less ammo, less money, more enemies with HP bloats".