SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[6743e1da8c1e4la0s]

For me it's a sign of their attention to detail, their sense of quality... if they get the tone...

This is something that has bugged from the start though. But still hoping that they pull it off.

[6743e1da8c4e6unn_atropos]

I'm a bit worried.

[6743e1da8c81bCarrot]

I'm surprised you guys spent so much time on the minutiae of certain words and sound effects when the trailer as a whole is simply not put together very well, mostly because there's not a lot to show and what's to show is at a too early stage.

I agree.  Especially jarring given how much more polished the demo was.  Although it feels like the right decision to switch engines, it still feels like a big step back to only have this video to show now (and doing some hiring apparently).

[6743e1da8cbc1RocketMan]

Seeing as SS1 is a... what is it now, 23 year old game, pretty much ANY engine in the last 15 years would be more than adequate.  If the game were brand new, the engine would be a far more important factor but this game already exists and is already awesome.  Trying to get the maximum yield out of directX 17 or whatever we're on now, with fancy shaders and lighting effects, is only going to cause the devs to lose focus on what the game is really about.  I guess what I'm saying is, based on the kind of mistakes and omissions they are making, vs the things they appear to be excelling at, I'm concerned that they are missing the point of the exercise as well.

I'm moreover concerned that they aren't reading these threads regularly, which should really be a no-brainer.  It's like cheating on a test to be able to hear the thoughts of your audience before you're even done.

[6743e1da8cd44icemann]

Or even just reading the posts by backers on KS

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598858095/system-shock/comments

[6743e1da8cf18Serial Peacemaker]

I think people are underestimating the difference a good engine can make.

Unity is an extremely popular engine, but I struggle to name five games that use it and 1) aren't indie games and 2) aren't mired on performance issues. Especially on consoles, where even extremely undemanding games like Broforce run like trash. This isn't to say it's a bad engine, but it isn't as suited for large projects and console games as much as Unreal and the like.

It's also pretty easy to see why they might not take into account the KS posts, at least going off all the posts that are complaining about the new trailer. Switching engines is hard time-consuming work. Getting all your existing tools to work with the new engine, getting all the levels and assets so far working, then getting it to run on your target platforms. Add to this the deadline to show something on GDC. Is it so incredibly hard to believe that they might not had the time to recreate the original demo and were more concerned with getting the game up and running on a new engine?  I laud skepticism in general, but this project is still so early in its development and some games don't really finalize their looks until months before release.

- - - -

Subjectively, I honestly wasn't a fan of the blue vomit filter and the Syndicate levels of bloom from the demo. It always reminded me of a game from the PS360 era. The new trailer looks pretty basic in many aspects, but I'm sure it'll be fixed up by launch.

[6743e1da8d267RocketMan]

Everything you say is valid but from a program management perspective, if you have a lot of work converting engines, why prioritize a teaser video that isn't going to capture the feel you're going for?  The UE4 vid looks more like a tech demo, to steal someone else's words.  I really don't think the choice of engine is going to have any impact on the appeal of the game for the reasons I already mentioned.  Tron's Lithtech engine would do the job IMO.  The engine may set design constraints and to that effect its selection is important.  "Can I do this or that with this engine?" is an important consideration but we're talking SS1 here.  In 94 it was as basic an FPS as one gets, with some 2D HUD stuff going on, some Descent style flying around, etc.  As long as you can do all that and make it look nice in today's gaming climate, you're good to go.  I think they have it comparatively easy because there's no pressure to compete with other gaming companies to make a state-of-the-art looking game.  The only frame of reference is of a blocky game from 94. 

The real value in releasing teaser videos is to get your audience's reaction to it and guide your design activities accordingly.  Based on the feedback so far, it doesn't seem like that's why they're releasing these videos.  Rather, it seems to me they're releasing them because:

A) They can demonstrate new technical features of the game that the engine can support (like freezing hybrids??).
B) They have a timeline that someone is holding a gun to their heads to uphold (Release something every so often for PR).
C) They obviously take pride in their branded re-imagining of the game and want to show that off.

...but if they don't change anything according to fan feedback, what's the point?  It's like, "check out this cool shit we just did with UE4!  Check out what Citadel station looks like now!" and most backer comments are like "Nyaa... that looks pretty generic and unfamiliar actually.  I don't feel like I'm in the SS world.  Bring back the look of the first demo" and then the devs just ignore everything and put a checkmark in the teaser video box and go on their merry way doing the same work they've been doing.  It's having tunnel vision really. 

They've already proven they have precisely the artistic style and the technical prowess to build a "Shocky" sort of game that arouses most fans.  They just seem to lack flexibility because they have a vision that they are married to.  They need to realize they also have money up front, which is something game devs of yester-decade didn't have and a group of people giving them feedback who arguably care more about the game than they do so it's really their responsibility to get more intimate with their audience and start making a game that the core fan-base will enjoy.  Just because they succeed in making a great game, doesn't mean they succeed in making a great remake.

Anyway, as mentioned, it IS still early so I hope future developments look more promising.  The talent is certainly there.

[6743e1da8d8bcOlfred]

The UE4 vid looks more like a tech demo

It's in pre-alpha state. Which means the bare minimum to have it in a working playable state is still being done. No suprise there isn't that much to show off.

[6743e1da8da87ZylonBane]

I was mostly concerned that I didn't recognize any of the locations shown in the demo. It doesn't even look like they're trying to update the original textures anymore.

And the new SHODAN looks like a chimpanzee.

[6743e1da8de26Join2]

I was mostly concerned that I didn't recognize any of the locations shown in the demo. It doesn't even look like they're trying to update the original textures anymore.

My exact same reaction. I don't care that it lacks the polish and draw of the Unity build, it's pre-alpha after all, but it just didn't look the same or identifiable in any way, but then again a lot of original shock could be said to be the same. A screenshot taken in empty repeating tile texture corridor x is not going to be identifiable by most.  Still, it was relatively open areas that were shown, and they probably should have been recognizable by fans of the game if their moderately faithful approach to level design and art direction as seen with the Unity build hasn't changed.

[6743e1da8e3f4Serial Peacemaker]

snip

Well, it is a tech demo.

Especially when you get into Kickstarters, a lot of the time devs switch engines to one they don't understand and end up blowing two years more on something that then never gets made. This video really doesn't serve a purpose beyond "We actually know how to program with UE4 and we aren't back to square zero." It doesn't look like a specific location in System Shock because it's not, it's just "a series of rooms, a vent shaft, several hallways, and a lovable mutant named Marty."

The team on Unity went to the trouble of even simulating the pixelated look of textures and other effects. They care about those details, as has been shown in their KS campaign and even the updates to the demo they pushed out during the campaign. I doubt they will simply give up this focus, and that they were mainly concerned with simply getting the game up and running on a new engine.

[6743e1da8e59dRocketMan]

That's why I question the need for a video at this point.  If they mean to show us what the game is going to look like (which is usually why you release a video in the first place), then we're going to comment on stuff that we don't like or don't recognize but if that's simply a symptom of rushing out a piece of media to meet a timeline, then it should have just been scrapped with a simple statement of "in lieu of our recent decision to transfer all assets to UE4, we have a lot of work ahead of us to bring the game world back to a state where it represents the look and feel we conveyed in our first video.  As such we're going to delay our target release date for this next video until we're confident we have something that conveys that aesthetic."

[6743e1da8e91bZylonBane]

The team on Unity went to the trouble of even simulating the pixelated look of textures...

Which I really hope they've abandoned, because it didn't make any goddamn sense. Fetishize what SS1 aspired to be, not what it was forced to be.

[6743e1da8ec49unn_atropos]

and a lovable mutant named Marty

A rare opportunity to promote my point and click adventure Marty aus dem All. Thank you!

[6743e1da8ed7aSerial Peacemaker]

@RocketMan

That's totally fair and understandable. But when my money's on the line, I'd rather them say "We've switched engines, here's proof that we know what we're doing and that this isn't a major setback." In a perfect world we'd be able to take their word for it, but . . .

[6743e1da8ee74icemann]

To play devil's advocate - At the same time you'd prefer that if they did do an engine change, that they would do it early on.

[6743e1da8f1b9Da9L]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPcFU6kXeZ4

New trailer video. My only gripe is that the game still is not very cyberpunk at all really. But it is early days.

I haven't played SS1 yet, but was Shodan's voice corrupt through that game too ? I thought it became corrupt because the hacker partially destroys her at the end of the first game

[6743e1da8f33fJosiahJack]

Shodan became "enlightened" once Hacker hacked her and removed SHODAN's ethical constraints.  This was before you even start playing the first System Shock: l

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID2BEXJ4IKc

[6743e1da8f683Serial Peacemaker]

Figured I'd post this here. It's Jason Fader on Discord regarding the trailer:

   

Hey everyone, sorry about the delay in answering questions. Been busy nonstop at GDC and it's not over yet. Going to answer all of the questions I can around Monday after my brain recovers
    I wanted to post here first to you guys about some of the biggest concerns I've been told about
    Keep in mind, my brain is running on empty...
    So, the engine change and visual change are unrelated. Things would pretty much look the same in either engine, but the big difference is performance
    The visuals are still a work in progress and know that I'm listening. What you see in the video is a rough style we are experimenting with to push crisper visuals
    Art direction was a lower priority for the engine change since we wanted to be sure the technology could do what we needed first
    Now that we have the pipelines set for getting art into the engine, we'll be iterating on the style and mood
    The other thing I heard was people were worried that the gameplay was becoming stripped down due to the simple combat shown in the video. Gameplay wasn't a priority for assessing the engine since, again, everything we've researched indicates Unreal can offer the same (if not better) foundation for the gameplay systems
    We're only 20% through our vertical slice, and there's still a lot to do. The next steps are getting interesting creature and environment behaviors, while also iterating on the hacking puzzles, cyberspace, weapons, and items
    This is a big game, so we're trying to tackle these components in order, starting with a solid tech foundation and an effective the process for getting art into the game. For now, we chose to bring art in we could finish quickly so we can get the other departments (like design) testing their stuff in engine. More elaborate and iconic art is coming, but remember, for this early stage of v slice, it's about establishing a solid foundation to build upon.
    That's it! If someone can cross-post this on the forums and direct folks to my explanation, that would be a big help.
    I'm kind of surprised I haven't passed out yet :p
    Oh, another thing worth mentioning is that the UE4 video represents 1.5 months of direct content creation, whereas the unity demo had about 6 months
    That was another reason for the switch, content took too long to get into unity. Not exactly the fault of unity, but as you can see, it's easier for us to create content in unreal

     

[6743e1da8f7c0icemann]

Have to disagree with JJ on this one. I started typing this post as one of agreeing, and then as I typed my response I recalled the first email you get from SHODAN (after entering that code and leaving the starting area bit in medical) in which she/it plays a recorded message that was definitely recorded long before the events of the intro. And she stutters a few times in that.

Something tells me, that that was just part of her character. Ethical restrains included or not.

[6743e1da8f8e9Serial Peacemaker]

I kind of assumed that the greeting message you get was after she had her restraints removed, but before she became overtly hostile. There's something like six months between when she was hacked and the events of the game, and there's a bunch of audio logs suggesting that she was laying low for most of it.

[6743e1da8fa81Nameless Voice]

So. I got the email asking me to supply my details to BackerKit - and apparently there's a surprise +$20 fee for shipping, not included in the actual backing amount.

That seems rather over-the-top to ship a DVD case (even a steel one), even halfway around the world.
I can't imagine that's more than 500g.

I idly checked the US Postal Service and they really do seem to charge such insane amounts, even though it would cost me 6 Euro to send that back the other way.

[6743e1da8fbd8voodoo47]

had to go through the same process, no extra charge though as I don't have a physical copy.

[6743e1da8fd21Serial Peacemaker]

There's an update on their Kickstarter:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598858095/system-shock/posts/1825794

Their mention of "modern level design principles" is definitely a bit of a hype check. Hopefully, they mean something along the lines of SS2 or Dishonored and not Bioshock.