SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[67458c7721989ZylonBane]

Flechette shotgun shells do exist—they were apparently used heavily in the Vietnam war. However, a trope of 90s cyberpunk (and earlier) was the "needler", basically a flechette-firing machine gun. This is clearly what SS1's weapon was based on. It would be a shame to lose it in favor of a generic shotty.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlechetteStorm (see the "Literature" section).

[67458c7721feaRocketMan]

>In no conceivable way was the Flechette anything like a shotgun - sorry dude.

The ammunition types of the Flechette are basically shotgun ammo. Pellets and fragmenting splinters have more in common with shotgun rounds than they do with fully automatic rifles or submachine guns. I don't know about you, but I used the Flechette to burst fire rather than holding it like an automatic. It was way too inaccurate otherwise for my tastes. It functionally changes little for me (and I anticipate most other SS1 players as well) for it to function as a burst weapon rather than an early-game automatic that you simply discard later in the game.

>B) more importantly, important stuff like the hopper is getting axed on the grounds that it consumes resources you don't have

I've consistently made the point that you should wait and see what direction the game takes prior to assuming something is being cut, even if someone makes an offhand statement in a live stream regarding development. We originally were going to trim a significant amount of weapons out of the game and I argued against doing so, but did argue for removing redundant weapons (the stun gun is a great example) and rolling their functionality into other weapons.

Try to hold off on what will and won't appear until we're a few levels into the game's development. We just left Medical and we're starting to get an accurate picture of what we can and cannot do in the time we have left to work with.

Loud and clear man.  No worries.

ZB:  I stand corrected then.  However that particular delivery system in that particular historical reference doesn't come through at all when playing system shock so it's academic for most people who don't have a thorough knowledge of the origins of these weapons (which you pretty much said already).

[67458c7722159icemann]

Considering that the game's set in an alternate future universe, I'd say that reality rules and conventions would apply far less so.

[67458c772229aJosiahJack]

It's hornet and splinter.  No where is there any mention of pellets.  So are you calling the shotgun a Shardblaster or something?

[67458c77223d7ZylonBane]

I'm just imagining someone at Night Dive saying, "It's an FPS! You gotta have a shotgun!" And here we are.

A better solution, if the intent was to reduce the number of weapons that are just reskinned machine guns, would be to give the flechette gun a very high rate of fire and high damage against organic targets, but also a wide projectile spread. That way it could fill the same general role as a shotgun without literally being yet another smegging shotgun.

[67458c77225d2Synaesthesia]

Hornet ammunition is made of sharp pellets per SS1's documentation.

https://shodan.fandom.com/wiki/AM-27_Flechette

Hornets (60) - Sharp, single-body pellets. In the I.C.E. Breaker, they're referred to as single-body slugs.
Splinters (60) - Multi-part slugs that splinter inside soft targets.

Shotguns fire pellets and slugs. They also fire flechette rounds. There is no functional difference between the burst fire of the AM-27 vs the SK-27 aside from rate of fire.

[67458c77229daGawain]

you simply discard later in the game.

Finding new weapons and and managing what fits in your inventory is part of the feeling and core gameplay in SS. Like in any survival type situation. Making choices and living with the consequences.
Some players also like options.
This is also part of the economy, since multiple weapons determine what bullets you can use and how much are there. You might play with the worst weapon just because you have abundance of ammunition and only use better weapons in situations where you don't have enough time or in SS1 case, can't damage the enemy type.

[67458c7722b2bSynaesthesia]

I don't disagree, options are great. Shock didn't have much in the way of options for rifles, though. The Flechette was just a Skorpion that didn't hit very hard. The Skorpion dominated everything you pointed it at. Why even use the Flechette at that point? The Hornet ammo doesn't even damage some enemies in the game, and the Splinter ammo is borderline useless - often requiring up to an entire mag of 60 rounds to destroy one enemy as you progress further.

[67458c7722c9eicemann]

Choices = better game imo. Any game that lets the player play the way they want, how they want, rather than how the game designer restricts them to, is a better one to me. Now obviously that depends on the game, but in the case of a System Shock game it's entirely relevant.

I eagerly await to when some of the more difficult enemies get implemented. That will be the true test.

Cyborg enforcer for example. Or that one that looks very much like a Mancubus from Doom 2. Assuming they make it into this remake.

If a SS2 remake is ever on cards, I'd HIGHLY recommend looking to Prey when thinking of how to better improve the PSI stuff. But that is a possibility for when and if it ever comes.

[67458c7722f77RocketMan]

There are times I can't understand why people game the way they do.  For example when somebody does a run with only energy weapons or a run where they don't kill anything.  I mean obviously they want a challenge and they find that stimulating but I wouldn't waste my time stimulating myself in that way when I can just as easily play on a higher difficulty and enjoy everything the game has to offer.

BUT...  that's human psychology.  Different people will justify what makes them happy and nobody can challenge that, which is a good thing about us.  The fact that there are communities of speed-runners who wear out a game thousands of times to gain a few msec is proof of this and there has to be respect for that.

Yeah you could argue that the riot gun is utterly useless and that the flechette should be immediately discarded as soon as one gets the scorpion, or that the blaster is better than the sparq in every way so why use the sparq anymore but that's just not how everyone is going to play.  People will be pissed off if you get rid of their favourite weapon/enemy/whatever and then tell them why you did it from a gameplay logic perspective.  That just invalidates their play style and marginalizes the gaming community.

Again, it's your game to build as you please and you don't have to follow any rules or listen to any criticisms but if your real goal is to honour the original game, then it would be wise to protect that which the fans cherish and you'll know what that is when the speak up about it.  They are the ones who care enough to bitch about how you're making it after all.  If you gave an update and there was nothing but crickets on the forums, then you'd at least have some indication that you weren't doing anything too objectionable and that maybe people are ready to be open minded about it.

[67458c7723264Gawain]

The Skorpion dominated everything you pointed it at.

Yep. After you get skorpion and laser rapier you don't really need to use anything else. However you have gone trough about 7/10 of the levels before you get skorpion.

My point is that finding new weapons (and losing the ones that you previously trusted your life on) throughout the game is part of the narrative. And much more pronounced than finding new type of ammo.

[67458c7723394Gawain]

After thinking more about Flechette I think it is the most fun gun in the game. The ridiculous recoil effect makes it challenging to use. Fire speed eats ammo like crazy. It sounds fun. It doesn't feel like the most tactical gun to use but you still keep spraying the bullets like water hose. It feels nice.

[67458c772356bSynaesthesia]

Something to keep in mind is that we're not just building this game as a 1-1 replica of the original, or simply to cater to existing fans. We also want to bring in new fans and get them excited about the future of this franchise. I get that some of you feel that replacing the AM-27 with the SK-27 isn't the best choice to make, but let's keep a couple of things in mind:

1) The game hasn't shipped yet, and we may yet include the AM-27. It's not likely, but it can happen.

2) Any protests about it being removed aren't considering that many people who play FPS games expect to see a shotgun in some form. Shock 2 had one. It's odd that Shock 1 didn't. Even Doom had a shotgun and it was from the same time period.

If we find that it doesn't play well, we'll likely cut it in favor of redesigning it or bringing back the original weapon.

[67458c7723832Gawain]

2) Any protests about it being removed aren't considering that many people who play FPS games expect to see a shotgun in some form. Shock 2 had one. It's odd that Shock 1 didn't. Even Doom had a shotgun and it was from the same time period.

You do what you want of course. And you probably have more information than I about LG's design decisions and why they didn't put shotgun in.

[67458c772393dRocketMan]

... as if game developers need to explain to people why they didn't include a shotgun.  You'd think it was like the allen key they put in the Ikea furniture box or something.

[67458c7723a27Gawain]

Why didn't they just make a another Doom clone. It might have sold more!

[67458c772400aMarvin]

2) Any protests about it being removed aren't considering that many people who play FPS games expect to see a shotgun in some form. Shock 2 had one. It's odd that Shock 1 didn't. Even Doom had a shotgun and it was from the same time period.

I completely get where you're coming from, and I honestly do not care much about little adjustments like that (flechette is a cool weapon, but SS1 has those in abundance), but if one of your main arguments about design changes in a SS1 memorial/remake is based on player expectations about how an FPS should play, you've already gone very far into the wrong direction. Someone going into SS1 expecting a fairly typical FPS (typical enough that it has to include a shotgun!) would be completely screwed, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to design around such players.

[67458c772416eSynaesthesia]

We felt a shotgun was a better choice than having another automatic weapon. Any explanations I'm giving are my opinions alone and are not the official policy of the company.

[67458c772436afox]

GHermann (GHermann//UNATCO.15431.76513) wrote:

>Might I suggest again, a skull gun for my head?
>Yesterday in Battery Park, some scum we all know
>pushes smack for NSF gets jumpy and draws. I take
>2 .22's, 1 in flesh, 1 in augs, befor I can get out
>that damn assault gun.
>
>If I could kill just by thought, it would be better.
>Is it my job to be a human target-practice backstop?
>
>Gunther Hermann

[67458c7724585icemann]

I would say to Night Dive to remember that System Shock 1 is an immersive sim first and foremost, and a FPS to a lesser extent. The original version of SS1 I'd barely even call a FPS really. Yes I know it's from a first person perspective and you shoot stuff, but in it's original control scheme without the mouse look, it very much plays like your a robot/cyborg. Which completely fits the plot of you having the neural interface installed in your head. So you see the world like a robot. And you have all the various displays etc that HEAVILY went against the norm of what a game of it's sort should have.

And if SS1 (the original) is a FPS, then so is Ultima Underworld (which to me it isn't), and Terra Nova (again no). With mouse look, maybe it is. Or more so. All the same game engine if I remember right. I just think to call System Shock. Any System Shock a first person shooter is a disservice to it. As the games are so much more than that, and all the better for it. I love these games because of these things. They gave birth to an entirely new genre (immersive sims).

If you look at the game as a first person shooter (just as Bethesda did with Fallout 4), then your going to have certain conventions in place, for player expectations and things it should have to fit that genre. Look at it as an immersive sim, and your expectations and overall design changes completely. I could go on for ages on this one, but it's all the player choice stuff (variance in weapons, all the cool implants and tech you could get etc etc) and more of a living breathing world type style, compared to the static linear levels of Doom, that made System Shock 1 & 2 so great. And it is that that I want to see in this game.

And that's my 5 cents.

[67458c77246ecSynaesthesia]

We're not looking at the game like it's a FPS. We're looking at it from the perspective of "SS1 has a lot of weapons that need overhauled. The Flechette is one of them. We feel it makes more sense as a shotgun at this point in time." I called the game a FPS because it is literally a game with guns in a first-person perspective. It's just easier to type FPS than it is to write "immersive sim with RPG elements and occasional gunplay".

[67458c77247ecicemann]

Note that my post wasn't about the shotgun. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Just a general one on the game / remake.

[67458c7726506Marvin]

We're not looking at the game like it's a FPS. We're looking at it from the perspective of "SS1 has a lot of weapons that need overhauled. The Flechette is one of them. We feel it makes more sense as a shotgun at this point in time." I called the game a FPS because it is literally a game with guns in a first-person perspective. It's just easier to type FPS than it is to write "immersive sim with RPG elements and occasional gunplay".

Well, we're an awfully tough audience, so I hope you remember to take any advice given here with a grain of salt.

[67458c7726714JosiahJack]

I mean changing the riotgun into a proper shotgun would be cool.  SS1 is more about progression in weapons and hardware upgrades than it is in soft stats like SS2.  In my opinion this is a more immersive way of handling player progression and maturity as you play the game rather than turning up some arbitrary number values (even though it's the same under the hood).  That is why going from a high rate of fire, high recoil, low damage flechette to a high power, mid rof, low recoil skorpion is such a major empowerment of the player.  You can still die in a few hits without your shield, but at that point you really start to dish it back to them on the same level.  The redundancy is there to give that progression of the same weapon type, same tool for the job but better.

Otherwise, ya what they all said.