SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[674612f0aa3beHikari]

Xkilljoy98Eight Years, thank you for pointing out the kickstarter had a yearish or so of leadup including posts on this forum as part of a fishing expedition.

As for the music? I like it, you're less enthusiastic. I can see where your'e coming from given the original made efforts for a dynamic soundtrack. I just happen to like what's on offer in the demo for the most part.

I'm probably going to get system shock 2 remaster, under the assumption existing mods still function (more as future proofing than anything.)

SSR? I'm... honestly glad I didn't have money to back. Eight Years is a long ass leadin for something.

[674612f0aa566voodoo47]

just a quick note - discord says reddit says SS2EE will be released later than SSR.

[674612f0ab17aRoSoDude]

My criticisms of the System Shock Remake Demo (February 2023):

• The animations for picking up objects are ridiculous. I understand animations for installing implants or grabbing a new weapon (though even these can be problematic as they slow you down and make you vulnerable to radiation/enemies in a frustrating way), but animating every audio log, flash drive, and key card pickup? Even for using a keycard on a door? Why not just a "Standard Access accepted" log message? Speaking of which, log messages in the upper left are really easy to miss, particularly with the blue/red HUD scheme I chose for my red-green color deficiency.
• Melee combat features excessive camera shake and poorly synced sounds, but more than anything suffers from a lack of hit effects. No hitstop on your weapons, and no stagger on enemies makes the feedback really poor. It's clear that melee combat basically works the same as Deus Ex (or even the original System Shock), where a certain frame of the swing animation does a range check in front of you for damage, which is a huge step back from SS2's melee combat in the Dark Engine which simulated the collision of your weapon over its swing animation. Things get a bit better when you acquire firearms, but ranged combat hasn't evolved much beyond the original's corner peaking, only now you can kill enemies even more quickly with headshots. The AI displays similar rudimentary behaviors as in 1994, save for the Cyborg Assassins which attempt to lay down proximity mine traps, though in my playtime they were more likely to blow themselves up with these than me.
• Movement is stiff and clunky. The original game was a playground for 3D movement, allowing the player character to jump, climb, lean, crouch, go prone, and of course speed through Citadel Station on rocket skates as governed by an original physics system. The remake's movement is mundane, featuring near instant acceleration/deceleration on the ground, a paltry jump, no ability to mantle onto ledges, and locking you into a paired animation whenever you touch a ladder. You can crouch jump, which causes your camera to jerk upwards in a strange way, but this is apparently intentional as it is the only way to reach a few secret items without mantling. I'm skeptical if the turbo motion booster will even be implemented under these conditions, as long door opening animations and added railings and other clutter make environments less friendly for speed skating.
• Cyberspace is obviously improved, though the original cyberspace was so undercooked that it's not much competition. Regardless, the new 6DOF arcade shooting is reasonably fun, though I had a bug which caused me to move at half speed until I used a recall software. When I loaded back into cyberspace, I discovered that enemies respawn, which seems a bad fit for the limited software resource system ported from the original. I'd suggest revamping this with cooldowns or data fragments found (and replenished) in each maze, so that decoy, booster, and hopefully other new softwares can be used freely and the cyberspace segments can be made more complex and challenging to match.
• The inventory interface is a pain to work with. You can't rotate items while dragging them; the only way to rotate items in the grid is to use the right click dropdown menu, which sends the rotated item to a new place automatically. Item icons are all tinted by the base UI color scheme, which makes them difficult to tell apart at a glance, and broken weapons for scrapping look the same as functional weapons. Junk items take up a huge amount of space (more on this later), such that carrying them alongside multiple weapons later on will be very tedious without inventory space upgrades. Right clicking an item in the hotbar removes it, while right clicking it in the inventory opens the dropdown menu, which tripped me up several times. You have to hold down a button to read item descriptions, which could just be displayed all the time instead.
• The new recycling mechanic is really ill-considered, both in terms of UI/UX and resource balance. The process of recycling items is painful, as you  can only recycle a 3x3 grid of items at a time (presumably to ensure that the physical items all fit in the recycler bin, which is unnecessary effort as compared with e.g. Prey's UI-driven recycler), and then pick up the credits which trickle at about half the speed they should. Instead of stuffing your inventory with junk items taking up 2-6 slots and run back and forth to the recycler to slowly process them, you can vaporize junk in your inventory into 1 scrap slot for half of the credit payout later. I would submit that the decision to halve your resource gain to avoid tedium isn't a particularly interesting one, and this distinction should be removed entirely. Moreover, I'd suggest that the ability to vaporize junk be granted by finding a hardware implant early in the game, and that items be converted into scrap upon picking them up if the implant is turned on. Another annoyance is that 10 scrap pays 1 credit, with any remainder deleted. There's really no reason why the leftover scrap shouldn't stay in the recycler bin, which could also be the case when you recycle items that together yield some leftover scrap.
• The credit economy is all out of whack. I had over 100 credits by the end of the demo just from vaporizing everything I found on the spot, and that was after purchasing every ammo box and mod kit from the vending stations. I would recommend increasing all credit costs (excluding candy/soda) by roughly 10x if there is to be any sort of survival horror resource tension and decisionmaking. It also seems really bizarre to me that the ammo vendors just have two lockers for ammo which are never replenished, as compared with SS2 or Prey where you fabricate items from a list. The fact that mod kit stations will only ever have 2 options at maximum is also really disappointing, as it means the options to modify your gear will be linear and lack any real choice, especially if it's so easy to grind credits. These things should really be UI-driven with more options in a list.
• The puzzles are a straight downgrade from the original wire and grid puzzles, both in UI/UX and in gameplay depth. Particularly the wire puzzles; while the grid puzzles were pure logic puzzles, the wire puzzles were intentionally fuzzier. Doug Church's design goal was to approximate the feel of lockpicking, where you iteratively make progress by feeling out the device through trial and error. One thing that's especially interesting about it is that the power progress bar gives "partial credit" for correct wire orientation and correct pin location for a given wire color, so it's possible to get stuck in a local maximum where any single pin change will decrease the current power. This means you have reconfigure the entire wire setup to untangle it and then try to guess at what was correct about the "hill" you were on. It's also cool that the power fluctuation can sometimes be enough to just barely get you to the required power amount even if you didn't get the wires in exactly the right place yet. The new minigame captures none of these subtleties, featuring more complicated power circuits but simplified pin slots (only need to configure output, with 1 pin per slot). I found two wire puzzles which appeared to have identical layouts and the same solution, which I stumbled upon blindly on the first try. More layouts could be designed, but there's actually less potential depth here than the simpler original puzzle. Regarding the grid puzzles, the panel to activate the lift just out of Surgery used to be a simple introduction to the grid puzzle interface, where now it's a long chain of tiles you must rotate to make a path from start to finish. This is mostly just a waste of time, as the path forward is pretty obvious as long as you understand that the pulsing node is the goal and the other nodes are pointless. The original grid puzzles were driven by unique on/off rules that could be pretty interesting to work out as they went on, where I can't really see this rendition evolving much. In both puzzles, the circuit takes forever to light up to update your progress, and the wire puzzle didn't play nice with the "focus camera on puzzles" option (which should ideally be a separate keybind a la Prey), causing the selected wire to freeze in the middle of the screen instead of going where I dragged the cursor. The fact that these puzzles are in-world means that they are also susceptible to glare from nearby light sources, making them less readable than a clean abstract interface.
  
• Overall, the remake seems allergic to graphical user interface overlays, which is crazy considering how essential they were to both System Shock games. In System Shock, the Multi-Function Display was your window into the world, and manipulating it was how you tracked information, managed your character state, and even expressed your playstyle. I liked to have my minimap on my right panel and my weapon config on my left panel, so that I could quickly swap ammo types and tune my blaster's energy setting. Another player might like to display target information or the item display (which let you monitor dermal patches and tune grenade settings). Now, I have to tab into my inventory to manually count how many rounds I have, where before I could track it with my cyberware. Obviously, things like reloading and changing ammo types were always going to be streamlined, but there's less UI here than SS2, which translated the original functionality into a more automated and user-friendly package. Now I can't display the text of a log without going into my media tab, which is a pain to navigate. And to my previous points, there's so much potential interaction and improved usability that's off the table by insisting that all the puzzles and vending machines operate in the world instead of in UI.
• Sound design: either a ton of these sounds are placeholders, or they SHOULD be placeholders. Radiation sounds like something on a frying pan instead of a Geiger counter. The magpulse firing sound is pathetic, it sounds like turning on a CRT television instead of a powerful EMP, even the original sound would be better here. Speaking of original sounds, applying patches is clearly the same as the SS2 hypo injection sound which really isn't fitting with the animation. The audio mix is also really poor, as cyberspace was really loud compared to everything else and positional audio seems nonexistent.
• The aesthetics and music aren't to my taste at all and fail to capture any of the the atmosphere and essence of System Shock to me, but others have discussed that to death and it's not going to change at this point.
• A few things I actually liked about the remake demo:
     -New cyberspace looks cool and is generally fun to play
     -Enemies carry broken weapons which explains why you can't pick up and use them
     -The new cortex reaver cutscene when you die without a restoration chamber active
     -Some of the redesigns look cool, like the TriOp troopers or their Cyborg Assassin cousins
     -I appreciate the attempt to expand the original's systems with gear upgrades and the like, flawed as it currently is

[674612f0ab570Xkilljoy98]

HikariFair enough, I just miss the original music and the new stuff is lacking and does nothing for me, it is lacking without it imo

[674612f0ab6daZylonBane]

Whatever happened to the option to play as a female Hacker? Seems like that's been completely dropped.

[674612f0ab8bcHikari]

ZylonBane
Wasn't that conveniently a stretch goal that was never met? They might include it in the full version (probably not.)

[674612f0abaacXkilljoy98]

ZylonBaneYeah IDK they had not mentioned it, maybe it will be in the final game, but I bet they forgot about it

[674612f0abbc0ZylonBane]

At this point I'm pretty sure all decision-making at Night Dive is based on spite. "What players don't want, we give them anyway. What players do want, we withhold. What players complain about, we double down."

[674612f0abec4RocketMan]

Ask them for a mountain of debt.

[674612f0ac137Xkilljoy98]

ZylonBaneYeah and I wanna know why they refuse to be honest about certain things, they show a bunch of screenshots, footage, etc, but they refuse to give a straight answer on certain decisions being made.

[674612f0ac32fkrumpet]

I haven't played the demo yet, but my impressions from video I've seen is that the monsters seem almost disinterested in the player. Enemies lack aggression and the combat doesn't look like a fight or a struggle at all. In SS2 combat comes across as fending off something hostile that is trying to kill you, maybe a part of that is that there's a big contrast between when a monster is in its attack routine versus on patrol. I think because they'll make the appropriate sound and then charge the player or do something else that makes it clear they are in attack routine. Whereas here there doesn't appear to be the same kind of urgency to combat. Maybe it's better when you actually play it though?

[674612f0ac516ZylonBane]

I tried to give the new demo a proper playthrough tonight, but I just.. I can't. I had to stop.

The new intro is worse than unnecessary, it's boring. It feels unfinished. Things that are supposed to be exciting play out in near-silence. You spend long stretches just watching the Hacker type. The new Diego looks and sounds like an elder vampire instead of the smug, cocky slimeball that Diego's supposed to be. I can't picture this guy ever emailing SHODAN and begging to be her lackey.

Everything wrong with the last demo is still wrong with this demo. Everything is still too dark. The interface text is still near-illegibly small. You still have freakishly long fingernails. There still isn't a key for playing the last email. Pickup and use animations still forcibly unequip your weapon, and there's even MORE of them now. Movement just feels bad. You're slow and clunky and you can only jump about six inches in the air. Melee attacks swing your view around so much you can't even tell what you're doing. The background music is dreary.

It's all just a dark, miserable, ugly, incompetent mess of a game.

[674612f0ac7dasarge945]

So am I the only person on this forum who actually overall enjoyed the demo (despite having some major issues with it) and am interested in playing the full game?

[674612f0ac908RocketMan]

Maybe among a minority here... but don't worry about it.  If you like the game, then you like the game.  Nobody is going to judge you for that. Don't worry about what other people think.

[674612f0aca81sarge945]

I do think it needs work, but I don't see it as a lost cause like a lot of others here.

[674612f0acbaaZylonBane]

Night Dive has demonstrated repeatedly that they don't perceive this game's problems as problems. It is the way it is on purpose. So at this point I fully expect this dumpster fire to go gold pretty much as it is right now.

[674612f0acca0sarge945]

I guess we're lucky UE4 is pretty moddable then.

Obviously the community shouldn't HAVE TO fix up games like this, but if the community CAN fix them, it might still have a happy ending.

[674612f0ace29icemann]

I'd say that if they don't do a complete overhaul, then it's going to end up like Chasm - The Rift went. Barely (if at all) noticed on release. Soon forgotten.

10 years from now - Regular gamer - What's System Shock?

Sarge: Easiest to fix is the music. If you watch my video above, halfway in I turned off the ambient crap and put on remixed Medical music and it made a MASSIVE difference audio wise.

[674612f0ad211Xkilljoy98]

I'd say that if they don't do a complete overhaul, then it's going to end up like Chasm - The Rift went. Barely (if at all) noticed on release. Soon forgotten.

10 years from now - Regular gamer - What's System Shock?

Sarge: Easiest to fix is the music. If you watch my video above, halfway in I turned off the ambient crap and put on remixed Medical music and it made a MASSIVE difference audio wise.

Oh yeah for sure, music is what I wanna mod the most, IDK how tho.

Tho thankfully there is music already made that we could use, well I didn't make but someone I know (Mickey Wilson) did:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsUzRsxvwpYq_5nIrNt9sVgnvCUKaQwDg

Tho there are lots of options for what music to add, that is what I would want to do, tho there are a number of options such as Chicajo (among others), tho I would want a version of the original OST that resembles the original though is updated some in terms of instruments to match the new graphics.

Would also need/want mod in custom models for enemies, items, weapons, levels, etc and stuff though I need help from someone to do that, or learn how to myself

[674612f0ad591ThiefsieFool]

Everyone already mentioned most of the issues, but I also think some of the combat balance might be wonky.
Basic cyborg drones take 3 shots from the magpulse to kill, and the magpulse is quite slow to fire, such that you want to fire it from cover.
Meanwhile dispatching the cyborg drones is very quick and easy with the minipistol if you score headshots, you can rush the cyborgs with the minipistol without caring about cover or ammo type and it's all good.

I understand it's the start of the game and the magpulse will get stronger while the minipistol will get weaker, but it still feels off.
You have to fight for a bit to get the magpulse after your early weapons, but there's a huge gap in performance between it and the earlier weapons.
Did the magpulse get a poor fire rate or poor damage? Or even both? The simple existence of headshots shouldn't tip the balance this hard in favor of the pistol.

[674612f0ad837voodoo47]

Night Dive has demonstrated repeatedly that they don't perceive this game's problems as problems. It is the way it is on purpose.

that. one of the reasons may be the reactions on discord, which are overwhelmingly positive (discord being populated mostly by the very vocal pro-pixel minority, or so it would seem).

[674612f0ada3bZylonBane]

At this point I have to admit that the pixelated textures aren't even the worst of the remake's problems. It's more like, it's just the tip of the iceberg of Night Dive not understanding how to design an immersive sim. All of their design decisions indicate that they'd be much more in their comfort zone making a retro boomer shooter like Selaco or Ultrakill.

The original was literally a game by MIT grads. This remake feels like a game by MBAs and dudebros.

[674612f0add05Xkilljoy98]

that. one of the reasons may be the reactions on discord, which are overwhelmingly positive (discord being populated mostly by the very vocal pro-pixel minority, or so it would seem).

Well I sure know that their discord seems to hate criticism.

[674612f0adef4Xkilljoy98]

Here is some more stuff from the demo

Here's the new death cutscene, didn't see it before cause I didn't die:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzR76vG2RpU

Here's the music from the new intro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0JEosbXLBU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugR7tJpPock

Here is the new intro with the original audio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWDczuU6HNk

Here's the new intro as well as footage of the demo in general:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS1kDHPzt00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ9BtA7cVl4