SSR: System Shock Kickstarter

[67416ce7da2f3Nameless Voice]

It shows a little "unread logs" icon in the corner of the screen until you play it, too.  Just to taunt you.

[67416ce7da4cfChandlermaki]

I'm convinced that almost zero play testing went into any part of this game's UI. Basically every interaction with it ends up being far more clunky than it needs to be.

[67416ce7da6e9voodoo47]

hence, "just copy what SS2 has". it's literal perfection.

[67416ce7daa20Xkilljoy98]

IDK if anyone else finds version differences interesting, but I've noticed that Diego's office (the new one) seems different in the Beta compared to the final version

[67416ce7db045sarge945]

I literally cannot think of any reason to do that other than hatred for the player.

The real reason is probably because F is the sort of "secondary use" button, so the thought process was probably "it's a context button, do things at various times based on context"

But there's literally NO GOOD REASON to not have a "last log" button. I agree it's asinine design. Or at the very least, make the context button play a log if there's nothing else to do.

The only saving grace is that it has an autoplay logs setting, but it's still annoying.

It almost seems like, get this, old game designers knew what they were doing, and trampling over their designs with modern tropes causes problems. Who could have possibly known this? 

[67416ce7db1d3ZylonBane]

So far the greatest joy this remake has brought me is reading messages on the various forums from the "I always play on the hardest difficulty" bros realizing that they've fucked themselves because of the time limit.

[67416ce7db480icemann]

Started on Engineering deck tonight, and god damn does this game have some BAD bugs that make Cyberpunk look good. Played a good chunk and game was running fine. Took out the first antennae, heading back to elevator to recharge and heal up. Just as I stepped into the elevator and hit the button for Executive a robot enemy showed up and fired just as the doors closed. Close call I thought.

Then the game started lagging as I got to Executive and progressively got worse to the point of the game becoming a slide show. Saved and reloaded. Same lag. Quit the game, went back in. Still there. Reset my PC and tried again. Same. Tried playing through the lag, and my next trip to the elevator resulted in getting knocked out of the level, killed, but not resurrected. All caught on video too as was recording.

Later loaded an earlier save from 2 days ago (prior to the robot shooting at me) and it runs fine no issue whatsoever. So it's just on that save file. My assumption is that the enemies shots once the door fully closed went out of the level and were never destroyed, and thus are flying off into infinity and beyond. Thus lag spike. That is just so bad. I've left a bug report on Night Dive's discord channel (so weird that they only take bug reports on there and not on an actual website). Hoping for a fix soon.

[edit]
So according to Matthew the programmer, my issues were caused by the shot leaving the level entirely and that enemy that shot at the door creating particles that are endlessly creating more particles which never die, so never ending particle loop.

[67416ce7db598Nameless Voice]

Having a hard time limit in a game is one of the stupidest design decisions, both in the original and the remake.

"We don't want you to spend too long enjoying our game."

[67416ce7db691ZylonBane]

It would only be stupid if it was mandatory. If you want to sight-see around Citadel, just choose one of the other difficulties. The highest Mission difficulty has always been intended as a challenge mode for returning players.

[67416ce7db822Denhonator]

If you pick the hardest difficulties, then complain it's too difficult or restricting, that's on you. I've also seen people complain it doesn't tell you where to go and they play on mission 2, and well, mission 1 is supposed to have map markers or something but apparently it doesn't work lol

[67416ce7db977Nameless Voice]

Yes, except "complete the whole game within X time or you instantly lose" isn't a fun challenge.

It's binary.  It does absolutely nothing, unless you take too long in some section, and then your entire run is ruined.  It's not like any other form of challenge where you can come back from it.

I personally call that bad design.  A good time limit would be one that makes the game harder if you take too long, or otherwise increases the complexity or difficulty, rather than just instantly making you lose.

[67416ce7dbd87JDoran]

Yes, except "complete the whole game within X time or you instantly lose" isn't a fun challenge.

Whenever I see a forum thread with a title like "The things you hate most in games", or "What ruins a game for you", or "What kills the fun in video games for you", then answers like "A time limit", or "Having to race against the clock" are always there. Along with things like bad controls, unskippable cutscenes, not being able to save wherever you like, and the game being a rushed, badly done port.

I don't remember anyone ever saying "[A Particular Game] is really good, but I wish there was a time limit to completing it. That would make it much more enjoyable".

[67416ce7dbeddPacmikey]

*Fallout 1 flashbacks*

[67416ce7dc14eAutz]

Oh, does F still only work for a few seconds to play the last picked up log, or did the release version change it to work permanently?

No, the problem now is that you can't play audio logs from the menu using the assigned hotkey. (opening menu > media > selecting an audio log > trying to play it). Other user has reported the same behavior.

Playing it with the cursor works, but still...

[67416ce7dc287ZylonBane]

Dear lord I hate the new "combat music". It sounds like they literally ripped the Overlord's Fancy music from Thief 2.

Also, Lord British Penises.

[67416ce7dc7b9RoSoDude]

Yes, except "complete the whole game within X time or you instantly lose" isn't a fun challenge.

It's binary.  It does absolutely nothing, unless you take too long in some section, and then your entire run is ruined.  It's not like any other form of challenge where you can come back from it.

I personally call that bad design.  A good time limit would be one that makes the game harder if you take too long, or otherwise increases the complexity or difficulty, rather than just instantly making you lose.

It's the kind of challenge that's satisfying because of how binary it is. I finished my second playthrough on 3/3/3/3 difficulty with 59 seconds left. Would I have been ultra pissed if 7 hours of cumulatively suboptimal play had led to me running out of time? Yes, but on the flipside it was made that much more exhilarating to succeed with just under a minute left, possibly one of the most enjoyable moments I've had with any game. I wasted a lot of time on the laser objective (as I wasn't originally intending to do a full playthrough), so I had to really optimize my play on security and the bridge, and I even used my last logic probe in the autobomb maze.

I've also argued before that the time limit "fixes" a lot of the problems with the game's systems, as abusing respawn chambers/healing beds/energy stations is a huge waste of time, and you're better off using your most powerful ammo and grenades rather than cheesing enemies around corners with the pistol/sparq. That might work decently well if the timer weren't as binary, but having a fire under your ass to optimize makes the game's economy and balance a lot more functional.

[67416ce7dce42sarge945]

So far the greatest joy this remake has brought me is reading messages on the various forums from the "I always play on the hardest difficulty" bros realizing that they've fucked themselves because of the time limit.

From my experience most "hardcore gamers" generally aren't.

My favourite ones are the ones who "play on super high difficulty", but then mash the quicksave key every 10 seconds so they can undo all their mistakes easily. That's not hardcore.

Seeing people fail the timer is pretty hilarious.

Having a hard time limit in a game is one of the stupidest design decisions, both in the original and the remake.

"We don't want you to spend too long enjoying our game."

It's there as an incentive for people who want the game to be harder, but in general, yeah it's a dumb idea in most games because they have no real incentive to play optimally, especially linear shooters. But It works okay in SS1 because of how freeform the game is and how abusable the mechanics are (as Ro mentioned)

The worst part about it IMO is there's no special fail condition or animation or cutscene or whatever. There's no reason for it to fail. It's just "oh, you're a Cortex Reaver now".

I feel like if they had added some custom content that was like "The station has been set to auto destruct, so you have 7 hours to get to the Bridge" or something with an actual explosion if the timer runs out, I feel like it could have made the time limit feel less arbitrary and less like a videogame element.

Whenever I see a forum thread with a title like "The things you hate most in games"...not being able to save wherever you like.

Wow, those threads sound really cringe.

[67416ce7dd1bdJosiahJack]

Having a hard time limit in a game is one of the stupidest design decisions, both in the original and the remake...

I  went for timed segments for Citadel rather than a single timer; it's still 7hrs total though iirc.  I couldn't think of a good idea at the time for the other segments, but in the last segment on the bridge I had SHODAN release a powerful biotoxin in the whole level once the final time is up so you could theoretically spam detox patches for a few minutes but would ultimately die with no res chamber.

Lot of good stuff in here to pay attention to.

[67416ce7dd4e6JosiahJack]

Dear lord I hate the new "combat music"...

The new music is terrible overall.  The only one that is somewhat ok is Storage Combat's bass line, but none of it is fitting.  The whole game is re-toned just by the music.  It's just so boring.

The overall audio experience is the one area that is just unforgivable to me.  Sounds should have been mostly redone in enhanced high quality, preserving charm and style. Instead it's very different.  Sure the physics sounds are good such as the pipe, but every tech sound is entirely different and weapons too.  The tone and feel is different.  This doesn't sound like System Shock.

[67416ce7dd68cZylonBane]

And the wrench. The fucking System Shock 2 wrench. If they'd made this a late-game easter egg or something like that, sure, whatever. But they straight give it to you halfway through the first level. It has better damage than the pipe, so unless I've missed something, there's literally no reason not to immediately toss SS1's signature lead pipe and slog through the rest of Citadel with the weapon from the wrong fucking game.

[67416ce7dda4esarge945]

And the wrench. The fucking System Shock 2 wrench. If they'd made this a late-game easter egg or something like that, sure, whatever. But they straight give it to you halfway through the first level. It has better damage than the pipe, so unless I've missed something, there's literally no reason not to immediately toss SS1's signature lead pipe and slog through the rest of Citadel with the weapon from the wrong fucking game.

Technically it has a shorter range, but you're right because the damage increase more than makes up for the slightly shorter range.

If you take the most positive possible interpretation, this seems like a nod to the sequel - a game that is FAR more well known. Maybe NightDive were afraid that people would say "where's the wrench!?"

If you take a negative interpretation, the wrench and the NightDive skulls could be a subtle way for the devs to say "Fuck you, this is our game now, we're doing it the way we want."

I theorise the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[67416ce7ddbcdicemann]

Note that my issue that occurred has been fixed in their code so as not to happen to anyone again. Should be in the next patch. So stay away from enemies near elevators in the meantime.

Next patch according to Matthew will:

* Have a bunch of fixes for various bugs reported and some new assets!
* Ammo rebalancing, new fx, some boss improvements, and gamepad improvements and cloud sync

[67416ce7de3ddJudicator]

no, what I'm saying is this;

number of people who would complain if SSR regen used the SS1 mechanic = 0
number of people complaining SSR regen now uses the SS2 mechanic ≠ 0

this is pretty much the running theme with SSR, you look at something, and go, just.. why? it's like they really have put all those bits in just to be annoying, hey, lets make sure this is going to be a 7/10, not more.

just for the record, I don't exactly like the original SS1 mechanic either, but replacing it with something equally (or more) gamey doesn't really make it any better, so might as well just leave it alone.


when in doubt, DON'T.

Most of my issues that I take with SSR is with needless retcons of the original's story by taking SS2 elements that were invented later according to the lore and stuffing them into SS1...I guess to try to appeal to the larger amount of people who have played SS2?  It comes across as a continuity incompetence.  I'm against when history is rewritten by some artistic pizzazz especially when such changes tend to detract from the gameplay.

There are quite a number of times this happened.  Any one item is not such a big deal...but the sum total gives us the overall sense that either the creators are ignorant, disrespectful, or maybe even making fun of the original.

I'm sad and frustrated that this is less of a game than it could have been, though for anyone to remake it is a difficult undertaking and likely to have issues that they were blind too for being too close or too focussed on the shine-your-shoe things that are difficult to do, and that most people will never pay attention to unless it didn't work.  Still, they seem to have neglected the feedback they were given lending them much less respect than I might otherwise have for them.

I took my time to go through some of the discussions before posting, it's been a few years since my last visit here and feels good to see some familiar names still "going for it", hope you guys are doing well.
The quoted posts above mostly sum up my feelings towards this DEMAKE leaning more towards what @JosiahJack has written: apparently every change to the original game (OG) looks like it has had the intent to remove all the features that made the original so characteristic and unique, even retroactively changing the lore, like a constant middle finger to the OG and its fans while constantly nodding to modern gamers and the modern trends in gaming, clearly, the worst ones, really saddening...
That and the bugs plus some other idiotic or nonsensical choices finally turned what the OG was into a generic, one-of-the-many bland FPS titles around.
I still remember when I fired up System Shock for the first time in 1994: my 486DX2 66MHz paired with my Matrox Millennium were struggling to move all that graphics, the physics, audio, a gameplay never seen before in any other title of up until then.
Clearly this time my expectations weren't as high but it would have been nice to see some consistency and respect to the OG and its fans.

Even when they listened to the community most of the times they did it with their own twist, oh so carefully, staying away the farther as possible from what made System Shock what it is.
I knew it from beforehand that it was going to end up like this: the idea was never to do justice to the OG but to turn it into a SS2, Bioshock hybrid with a modern take in order to please modern tastes.

[67416ce7de536ZylonBane]

Hopefully a future patch will fix the dreadful state of the recycling system. Despite ripping off both SS2 and Prey, they somehow managed to come up with a system that's worse than both of them. It's like Night Dive intentionally engineered it to maximize tedium. You're either manually vaporizing every single junk item, or spending minutes loading the tiny recycler grid multiple times to empty out all your junk, then having an inventory slot permanently occupied by those ridiculous cookie-sized TriOp arcade tokens. Apparently in System Shock's future the debit card is a lost technology.