Board moderation, masks, and the depths of the human soul

[6740d0f30b637Aurora]

it was met with very knit-picky and condescending critique, so much that one of the moderators stepped in and deleted about 6 or 7 posts (yeah it got that out of hand), so I don't think you were aware of that.

Think first, before you post something you might regret later.

So much for 'message permanence' to preserve messages and make conversations easier to understand, huh? More like 'selective message permanence'. I suppose you guys can either enforce that rule or just throw it straight out of the window, depending on whichever suits you.

[6740d0f30b876voodoo47]

nothing wrong with deleting off-topic or unrelated posts.

[6740d0f30b9d0Aurora]

Only in 1 out of 4 cases I have witnessed so far have the posts been off-topic or unrelated. In the case of this topic, the deleted posts were clearly related. Besides, even if they were unrelated, they could have been moved rather than deleted, as was done by splitting one particular topic recently. Otherwise said 'rule' is a joke.

[6740d0f30bacevoodoo47]

whoever has split and deleted them (not me) has most likely decided that they do not contribute to the discussion in any positive way, and are derailing the topic. just like the last few posts here, so lets just leave it be.

[6740d0f30be94Aurora]

When you delete a part of a discussion, what you are doing is in essence taking away someone's mode of speech, which makes an outside observer not want to post on the forum.

When users are prohibited from removing their own posts on grounds of message permanence, as well as making it easier for other people to follow the conversation and see its full context, then administrators should not selectively delete posts on behalf of certain users, or themselves. It gives you the power to arbitrarily and subjectively decide what is relevant and contributes to the discussion, and what does not; personally I did not consider the deleted posts in any of those three other topics to be unrelated.

For all I know, my posts could be selectively removed or edited - or had their topic titles altered as happened to me a few times now - and I could be made to look like a complete clown. For all I know, someone else may have raised concerns about forum policies or the behaviour of other users, and I wouldn't know anything about it if the entire discussion was deleted and buried somewhere. Someone, perhaps some senior community member who ends up being very rude on a bad day, could completely get away with it if a favourable administrator agreed to delete his posts and clean up everything. It is basically censorship.

Arguments, so long as there is some reasoning from any side, are important to a community's discourse, growth, and development. If you want people to think before they post, and others to know what's up, then 'cleaning up' everything defeats the point. It will be forgotten the next day and there will be no self-reflection nor improvement. Pretending that things are alright and a consensus reigns will only result in the community becoming an ingrown echo chamber. Outsiders won't know what they're getting into; a potentially immature community with defective social skills.

I can imagine the occasional creative personality chancing upon this forum and deciding to post his FM or whatever other work of art that took him months, years to make, only to have some random faggots reply 'lol it sucks' after playing it for five seconds. On top of that, maybe some senior member shows up to say 'this is definitely amateurish', crosses his arms, and acts as though it's his job to be the resident arsehole. Consequently this creative personality is suddenly no longer very interested in spending his time on such thankless work.

I am not saying you in particular did what I described above, but I must still tell you something. There's a huge difference in giving feedback when it comes to software development or engineering, versus anything that involves art in any way or form which the author has poured his heart into. Dumping nothing but an autistic bug report list onto somebody who does the latter will discourage him, almost like a boss throwing you a pile of paperwork while failing to give any recognition for what you did well. Try something like 'So I played through your FM and it was alright - I made it through to the reactor area so far. Though, here's a few things you could fix or improve: A, B, C...' - it's basic human decency, it's really easy to do, and the outcome is better for everyone. It only takes ten seconds to include those extra words.

Moreover I remember someone mentioning that each work released on here receives so much criticism and scrutiny because there is a low volume of new content being made today. If anything, in my view the opposite is true; only if there was a high volume of content being released, would there be an established standard that you could afford to harshly judge everything against.

[6740d0f30bff1voodoo47]

you are probably right in more than one way, but to be completely honest, I kind of don't really care? I'm a tech guy, not a people person, my interests lying in fixing technical problems, not social interactions.

and I do enjoy the (sometimes brutal) honesty found on this forum - I think having someone to tell you that you are being wrong when you are without any restraint is a good thing. I'm very, very tired of people faking everything in RL - here, I'm free to tell anyone what I think, and anyone is free to do the same.

give a man a mask, he becomes his true self.


//will split soon, things are starting to get philosophical.

[6740d0f30c16fAurora]

I was hoping you would take what I wrote on board, not throw your hands up in the air and say 'meh, I only care about tech', because what I am suggesting is very minor. Honestly. No one is asking you to take up a career as a social worker nor become a chatty extroverted people person; only to show basic human kindness and appreciation. I even explained how you can easily do this with just a few extra words in a post.

Being kind and telling someone he is wrong or criticising his work are not mutually exclusive. I am not saying it is rude and inconsiderate to point out flaws. Flaws need to be pointed out and addressed unless we want an atmosphere where people tip-toe around each other. Specifically this is why I say arguments, when at least some reason is involved, are a good thing. However this can be done in a respectful way that does not discourage the other person, once again demonstrated in the example. Neither is such an atmosphere good where one just becomes discouraged.

[6740d0f30c251voodoo47]

I did acknowledge the amount of effort that went into the FM. and I encouraged further development.

I also liked the corn.

[6740d0f30d080chuckles n chestnuts]

For all I know, my posts could be selectively removed or edited - or had their topic titles altered as happened to me a few times now - and I could be made to look like a complete clown. For all I know, someone else may have raised concerns about forum policies or the behaviour of other users, and I wouldn't know anything about it if the entire discussion was deleted and buried somewhere. Someone, perhaps some senior community member who ends up being very rude on a bad day, could completely get away with it if a favourable administrator agreed to delete his posts and clean up everything. It is basically censorship.

Arguments, so long as there is some reasoning from any side, are important to a community's discourse, growth, and development. If you want people to think before they post, and others to know what's up, then 'cleaning up' everything defeats the point. It will be forgotten the next day and there will be no self-reflection nor improvement. Pretending that things are alright and a consensus reigns will only result in the community becoming an ingrown echo chamber. Outsiders won't know what they're getting into; a potentially immature community with defective social skills.

I can imagine the occasional creative personality chancing upon this forum and deciding to post his FM or whatever other work of art that took him months, years to make, only to have some random faggots reply 'lol it sucks' after playing it for five seconds. On top of that, maybe some senior member shows up to say 'this is definitely amateurish', crosses his arms, and acts as though it's his job to be the resident arsehole. Consequently this creative personality is suddenly no longer very interested in spending his time on such thankless work.

I am not saying you in particular did what I described above, but I must still tell you something. There's a huge difference in giving feedback when it comes to software development or engineering, versus anything that involves art in any way or form which the author has poured his heart into. Dumping nothing but an autistic bug report list onto somebody who does the latter will discourage him, almost like a boss throwing you a pile of paperwork while failing to give any recognition for what you did well. Try something like 'So I played through your FM and it was alright - I made it through to the reactor area so far. Though, here's a few things you could fix or improve: A, B, C...' - it's basic human decency, it's really easy to do, and the outcome is better for everyone. It only takes ten seconds to include those extra words.

Moreover I remember someone mentioning that each work released on here receives so much criticism and scrutiny because there is a low volume of new content being made today. If anything, in my view the opposite is true; only if there was a high volume of content being released, would there be an established standard that you could afford to harshly judge everything against.

I couldn't have said it better Aurora, its about time.  Sounds like you not only empathize with me but you see how things are on here as well unfortunately.  I appreciate you sincere honesty.

you are probably right in more than one way, but to be completely honest, I kind of don't really care? I'm a tech guy, not a people person, my interests lying in fixing technical problems, not social interactions.

and I do enjoy the (sometimes brutal) honesty found on this forum - I think having someone to tell you that you are being wrong when you are without any restraint is a good thing. I'm very, very tired of people faking everything in RL - here, I'm free to tell anyone what I think, and anyone is free to do the same.

give a man a mask, he becomes his true self.


//will split soon, things are starting to get philosophical.

Voodoo, that was weak to say I must admit, I think there is a fine line between 'wearing a mask and being ones-self' and having total disregard for self-restraint and self-respect and maintaining a character of  good standing, mask or no mask, its called moral ethics....and I don't care if your on the internet or a million light years away (and by the way hiding behind a keyboard and being a drillmaster online when your not that way in reality is another level of childish weakness), moral ethics still stands in my book (and quite frankly, many other self-respecting intellectuals that I know as well), yes I get it, 'speak your mind' but do it with tact and some sense of self preservation, just because you know your the expert in a certain field doesn't mean you should beat others down to a mental (or physical in some cases) pulp, that is how sociopaths and dictators think, not free people with a sense of altruism and a pulse.

I am with Aurora on this one to be quite frank, he's been pretty transparent and honest without coming off snarky and condescending from what I've seen of his posts so far which I can't say for the small majority of 'regular' posters I see on here (I won't say names, I think its kind of obvious at this point).

And to Aurora, yeah if your getting flak, your not alone, I don't think ever in my history of being online have I had to argue needlessly over ever single point on here and all I wanted to do was contribute to the fandom, but I won't beat a dead horse, as I've already covered this topic enough..sadly.

[6740d0f30d23fvoodoo47]

what I've said I've said not because it was supposed to be weak or strong, I've said it because it's what I think. I am what I am, and I do what I do. can't change that, even if I wanted to. I'm also fully aware that I'm not a shining example of a good person (in fact, I'm probably the opposite). but I do help people if I can, no matter whether I like or dislike the person and/or their work. that's what I have going, you can either like it, or not. I'm fine either way.

btw, if you want to see flak, have a look at the corrosive shrapnel warfare that is going on in the SCP bugreport topic. but you can also have a look at the GMDX topic, where, despite the sometimes very different opinions, things are kept civilized - exactly because all parties are not taking things personally, and understand that everybody has the same goal - to make things better.

[6740d0f30d728chuckles n chestnuts]

what I've said I've said not because it was supposed to be weak or strong, I've said it because it's what I think. I am what I am, and I do what I do. can't change that, even if I wanted to. I'm also fully aware that I'm not a shining example of a good person. but I do help people if I can, no matter whether I like or dislike the person and/or their work. that's what I have going, you can either like it, or not. I'm fine either way.

btw, if you want to see flak, have a look at the corrosive shrapnel warfare that is going on in the SCP bugreport topic. but you can also have a look at the GMDX topic, where, despite the sometimes very different opinions, things are kept civilized - exactly because all parties are not taking things personally, and understand that everybody has the same goal - to make things better.

Yeah, I could imagine, but I really don't like delving in drama too much but I'll give it a look.

And as far as being a bad or good person I personally try to err on the side of good but at the same time I keep eyes on back as well, and I try to avoid being a doormat.  And if I have toxic people in my life bringing me down I try to either eliminate them out of my life, or do my best to ignore them, but that is just me....And believe me I've taken my fair share of flak in the real world, but I still don't come online and act up though (not implying anything by that last statement but just making my point clear is all).

And on a sidenote: I think that is both the problem and the major advantage of the internet is that there is almost pure anonymity in which there is no real consequence and some people, given the power to do so, will use it to oppress and put others down as they see fit, which is a shame in my opinion rather than use that energy to contribute to something good. 

[6740d0f30dd1aAurora]

I am what I am, and I do what I do. can't change that, even if I wanted to

While self-reflection and change unfortunately are things that most people initially feel too uncomfortable with, anyone can change if they want or need to. You are only as much of a slave to your own biological programming, parents' upbringing, religion, traditions and ways, and whatever in the past that left its mark on your personality, as you decide to be.

Of course you must either want or need to change, as no one will do this if he perceives himself as 'fine' as he is. I am telling you that for the purpose of maintaining cordial friendships, or in the very least co-operative work relationships such as in this modding community, it is needed - it is a necessity. I am saying that for a healthy social atmosphere in this community that is inviting to potential new contributors, it is a necessity. If you want to see more people flock to this community, even if they are complete outsiders to the decade old friend circle that exists here, and want to see to new authors making new fan missions, then maybe you would even want to change if you connected the dots and realised the potential effect.

You, along with all the rest of you, can decide to collectively dismiss this as useless bullshit from a whiny special snowflake who wants preferential treatment or something along those lines, if you want to sweep it under the rug and not think about it - but I'm not even talking about myself here nor asking you to do anything for me specifically. Me and chuckles are just two strange new faces here, looking at this community somewhat from an outside perspective. We're trying to point out the pink elephant in the living room that apparently you and many other active users have gotten so used to that it has become invisible to them - which is no surprise really, as this has happened in virtually half of all mod communities I have frequented.

Edit:

btw, if you want to see flak, have a look at the corrosive shrapnel warfare that is going on in the SCP bugreport topic.

Can you link this? I checked the SCP topic under the mods subforum and did not see any drama on a first glance, so maybe I've got the wrong topic.

[6740d0f30de67voodoo47]

enjoy.

[6740d0f30dfe4Aurora]

In any event, going forward, toning down your constant negative rhetoric (including towards others) will make it easier for all. If not, then maybe you're the one with the brain disorders.

Pretty much anyone I've talked to with regards to this forum community has said something to this effect about the user whom that quoted post was addressed to. So maybe I am indeed right in some aspects?

[6740d0f30e177Briareos H]

Ahhh complaining publicly about moderation, the oldest job on the internet...

[6740d0f30e44eAurora]

Ahhh complaining publicly about moderation, the oldest job on the internet...

Would you rather have it all behind closed doors? It would have the same effect as 'cleaning up' (read: sweeping under the rug) an argument in the public; as in, it defeats the point that 'message permanence' was supposed to have to my understanding.

[6740d0f30e6f7Kolya]

Moderators can delete posts and users can't. There is nothing arbitrary about it, it's part of moderating the forum.

In chuckles first thread Join Uss asked him what his Fm was about, what to expect. Chuckles didn't want to answer that and have people go in blind. And then a discussion between them flared up about whether this was a legit a question.
I didn't so much "step in" to prevent any kind of misbehaviour. But it became clear that chuckles was annoyed and Join Uss wouldn't let up and the whole thing would be rather uninteresting and possibly off putting to someone looking into chuckle's Fm.
So I asked Join Uss to let it go and deleted the irrelevant posts. I defused the situation and got the thread back on topic: moderation successful.

I make mistakes, I'm only human, but this wasn't one of them. As for your general criticism against moderation practice and other users I think you're stepping over the line. It's not your place as a user especially as a new one and in this way to tell us how we should manage this site. If you see a post that violates the rules, report it. If you have other valid complaints I suggest to write a PM. Otherwise please keep to the topic of this site. Thank you.

[6740d0f30ea67Briareos H]

Would you rather have it all behind closed doors?

Yeah I probably would. Disclaimer: I don't come here every day, I don't think I've ever used my moderation privileges and I'm not sure I've read what the deleted posts you are talking about are so I'm an entirely external point of view to this whole thing.
As such, I can't help but get the feeling that there's either a massive misunderstanding or you're personally trying to pit people against each other -- and I don't want to assume the latter.

Most people here are super nice, some of us are a bit weird (myself included) and we all do have some quirks but it's easy to work around them when you know the people involved. Wouldn't your main issue be that you haven't yet gotten to know everyone well? I suggest you spend some more getting involved in the forums. If I see something that I perceive as an injustice from another moderator, I'll see with them. I don't think this has happened yet, though.

Debating moderator decisions is best taken directly to them in private. I also don't see how it would have much in common with 'message permanence' unless you really want to split hairs about the written rules and debate minutiae. Yet moderating a forum is not about minutiae, it's a continuum of non-linear decisions taken so that the place can keep on living with the maximum amount of people having a good, constructive time.

[6740d0f30eedeJoin2]

In chuckles first thread Join Uss asked him what his Fm was about, what to expect. Chuckles didn't want to answer that and have people go in blind. And then a discussion between them flared up about whether this was a legit a question.
I didn't so much "step in" to prevent any kind of misbehaviour. But it became clear that chuckles was annoyed and Join Uss wouldn't let up and the whole thing would be rather uninteresting and possibly off putting to someone looking into chuckle's Fm.
So I asked Join Uss to let it go and deleted the irrelevant posts. I defused the situation and got the thread back on topic: moderation successful.

Yeah, personally while I was at first annoyed you deleted our posts, especially as I couldn't reference them in mine an chuckles' second encounter, his thread dedicated to his hard work was getting shitted up with stupid bickering that was neither interesting nor sensible and it was ultimately for the best. Mostly because it was the first page, and people look at the first page for relevant info, plus it was his introduction to the community and a fresh start was for the best.

I haven't really read this thread in full and I'm sure people have outlined why deleting posts is bad regardless of circumstance but at the end of the day I think there sometimes should be exceptions to the rule, much like someone intentionally spamming unintelligible posts over and over would get them removed.

[6740d0f30f044Aurora]

If messages are to be deleted, then it would be cool if we were notified at least. I also think it's better to either have the whole conversation there or none at all.

In any case if the public criticism of moderation is  unwelcome, then we can shift the topic onto the main point, which is common courtesy. With some more basic kindness and appreciation towards the fellow user, nothing would ever even have had to be deleted and the atmosphere here would be more inviting and encouraging, above all for new contributors. Basically what I said in my third post. Does anyone agree with that? It would be great to have some more self-reflection in this regard.

[6740d0f30f164The Many]

 The many calls for all to join with us. Stop with the petty squabbles of the individual and join in our symphony of joy. One can dream, but the many can accomplish.

[6740d0f30f49dThe Brain]

Ooh boy, political correctness and special snowflake privileges checked.

[6740d0f30f69fKolya]

The thing is this: there are long time members here, but we're not an enclosed circle as it may seem to you. We just know each other a bit. But that's something you can easily accomplish as well without spending 10+ years here.
You'll quickly find that this is anything but an "echo chamber". Opinions and temperaments differ immensely and the often long and detailed discussions on these boards are testament to that.
As for the lack of courtesy - it's true! We're not a very courteous bunch. But if you look closer you'll find that most of the time it's a worky and efficient direct approach. Most people here won't waste time with cushioning the facts for anyone's ego.
It may take some getting used to. Just keep in mind that people here generally mean well, they're just really passionate about this stuff.

This bears repeating: We don't have some evil agenda here. We don't edit threads to make anyone appear in a disadvantageous light. That wasn't the case in chuckle's thread nor your's nor anytime I remember.
But we do sometimes moderate the forum to cut out irrelevant fighting, especially in the archives or other dedicated threads.
Not to create a false appearance of consent (that would be pretty much impossible with the varying opinions here) but to make such threads useful sources of information about their respective topic.

[6740d0f30fc8cAurora]

The thing is this: there are long time members here, but we're not an enclosed circle as it may seem to you. We just know each other a bit. But that's something you can easily accomplish as well without spending 10+ years here.
You'll quickly find that this is anything but an "echo chamber". Opinions and temperaments differ immensely and the often long and detailed discussions on these boards are testament to that.

Very well - I may have misjudged the community over the short amount of time I've spent here. I perhaps assumed too much on basis of a general trend that goes with a lot of other old modding communities.

The many calls for all to join with us. Stop with the petty squabbles of the individual and join in our symphony of joy. One can dream, but the many can accomplish.

Ooh boy, political correctness and special snowflake privileges checked.

Politeness =/= political correctness. They are quite different things. I have made potentially 'politically incorrect' statements in a discussion on this subforum, but I did so without being 'impolite', e.g. sarcastic and condescending towards other users, and without attaching feelings to my opinions in the form of inserting swear words into every sentence, etc.

As for 'special snowflake privileges', in this thread I have primarily spoken in defence of someone else here (chuckles), and generally addressed the lack of kindness with which certain users treat certain other users, not demanded anything special for myself. You know - I remember a post (now deleted, unfortunately) by a senior user (name no names) in which he explains that in mod communities, you only get a free pass to act like a dick if you are important or contribute with something. Generally that seems to be the case from what I have seen so far. If you want to find 'special snowflake privileges', look that way.

As for the lack of courtesy - it's true! We're not a very courteous bunch. But if you look closer you'll find that most of the time it's a worky and efficient direct approach. Most people here won't waste time with cushioning the facts for anyone's ego.
It may take some getting used to. Just keep in mind that people here generally mean well, they're just really passionate about this stuff.

I never assumed that in all of the cases there was an intention to hurt the person's ego, just saying that a little bit of forethought and some empathy towards other users before posting would have avoided a lot. However, in some cases (particularly with one certain user) there seems to be quite a lot of passion towards rubbing the soles of their feet into the target users' faces. I do not get the impression such behaviour would ever fly if this user was a newcomer, which he is of course not.