SSR The System Shock demo is OUT!

[6742bc61a31a3Zanderat]

Cool.  But let's not turn this place into a SS version of NMA.   

[6742bc61a32c3DKDArtagnan]

Ok, agreed.

Obviously, we all have a right to an opinion. I just think calling ND deceitful is a bit much at this point, but so be it.

[6742bc61a3468Synaesthesia]

I see we've sunk to "you disagree with my opinions on video games, therefore you're trolling".

[6742bc61a3602voodoo47]

I'd like to point out that we are not demanding a certain version of the game, but analyze and explain why certain deviations might not be such a good idea. these is a difference between a simple opinion and a systematic assessment.

and while the people here indeed are just random people on the internet, some have decades of Shock experience under their belts - if they say watch out, there is good chance it's for a reason.

[6742bc61a3980DKDArtagnan]

I'd like to point out that we are not demanding a certain version of the game, but analyze and explain why certain deviations might not be such a good idea. these is a difference between a simple opinion and a systematic assessment.

and while the people here indeed are just random people on the internet, some have decades of Shock experience under their belts - if they say watch out, there is good chance it's for a reason.

That goes both ways, though.

There's a major difference between saying why certain deviations might not be a good idea, and then calling Nightdive dishonest and deceitful. Two completely different worlds, as far as I'm concerned.

I have 22 years of System Shock experience - and I disagree, so what does that mean?

Nothing at all - it just means I have another opinion.

The guy leading Nightdive also has 22 years of experience with System Shock - and he also has his own opinion.

There's no one here who can claim to have more authority than that - so why not stop pretending it's a question of experience or seniority. We just have different opinions about what would make a great new System Shock - and that's it.

[6742bc61a3bf6Synaesthesia]

and while the people here indeed are just random people on the internet, some have decades of Shock experience under their belts - if they say watch out, there is good chance it's for a reason.

It's also just as likely that the reason is "I've played one game for so long that I have tunnel vision."

[6742bc61a3d09voodoo47]

that doesn't make anything I've said any less valid.

[6742bc61a42aeZylonBane]

The guy leading Nightdive also has 22 years of experience with System Shock - and he also has his own opinion.

He also has a profit motive, which is how we ended up with Bioshock.

[6742bc61a458dDKDArtagnan]

He also has a profit motive, which is how we ended up with Bioshock.

Yeah, all games will be Bioshock because developers need to be paid. Well, except - of course - the games you like, because no profit was involved with those. Those were all made by pure artists that didn't need funding or wages.

That makes "Zylon" sense, I'm sure.

[6742bc61a4688ZylonBane]

You're really quite exceptionally dim, aren't you.

[6742bc61a4867DKDArtagnan]

You're really quite exceptionally dim, aren't you.

To people without rational arguments who need to feel superior, yep.

[6742bc61a495eZylonBane]

Ah, then you admit that my argument was rational and that I have no need to feel superior.

Or you're calling yourself dim.

[6742bc61a4f6cicemann]

I have 22 years of System Shock experience - and I disagree, so what does that mean?

Nothing at all - it just means I have another opinion.

The guy leading Nightdive also has 22 years of experience with System Shock - and he also has his own opinion.

There's no one here who can claim to have more authority than that - so why not stop pretending it's a question of experience or seniority. We just have different opinions about what would make a great new System Shock - and that's it.

On my end, I'm 100% speaking opinion only. On opinion on this reboot, my opinion is no more and no less valid than your own and I've said as such in my earlier replies.

Speaking for myself only here but I've often raised similar objections on other games (ie Fallout 4 earlier) on other forums + this one on games like the Syndicate reboot (a name-make 100% imo since it bears no similarities to the earlier games in the series),  Wing Commander Arena etc. Change can be good (ie Fallout 3's move to first person view over top down isometric, GTA 3's move to a 3rd person perspective over the earlier top down games) and sometimes not so much (ie all the 3D attempts at Castlevania games, Metroid changing to FPS view compared to the 2D side view of earlier games). All opinion of course.

End of the day for me, I have an opinion I speak it. You have yours, speak yours. We disagree? Welcome to the internet. Debate / don't agree / agree to disagree. Whatever. We shouldn't have to devolve into name calling however. You want to debate me on a game I've played or watched videos of, feel free. I don't mind at all. I might take a bit to reply and like to edit my posts when I think of more to say, but we all have our quirks.

On the guy who runs Night Dive. I personally think the guys who made System Shock 1 know it better. But that's just my opinion. I'm not claiming it as fact. Just an opinion. You don't agree? No worries, that's your opinion.

My opinion: Many people these days confuse a debate with an argument. I love a good debate, but many take it as an argument. It's annoying but that's life. Who's right? No'one. Who's wrong? No'one. It's all opinion.

So for me, I LOVE System Shock. Played the first game around 95 I think (CD version). LOVED IT. Loved how different it was to anything else out there. System Shock 2 was announced many years later. Played the demo and loved what I saw. Played the full version a bit later and loved that. Joined my first forum (TTLG) not longer after due to my love of System Shock universe and have been an avid member of the community ever since.

If I love a game series/universe I get passionately into it. That's me. Does that make me better than anyone? Hell no. Does not mean for a second that I wont debate you on it though :p.

And that's my 5 cents.

[6742bc61a57c4DKDArtagnan]

On my end, I'm 100% speaking opinion only. On opinion on this reboot, my opinion is no more and no less valid than your own and I've said as such in my earlier replies.

Speaking for myself only here but I've often raised similar objections on other games (ie Fallout 4 earlier) on other forums + this one on games like the Syndicate reboot (a name-make 100% imo since it bears no similarities to the earlier games in the series),  Wing Commander Arena etc. Change can be good (ie Fallout 3's move to first person view over top down isometric, GTA 3's move to a 3rd person perspective over the earlier top down games) and sometimes not so much (ie all the 3D attempts at Castlevania games, Metroid changing to FPS view compared to the 2D side view of earlier games). All opinion of course.

End of the day for me, I have an opinion I speak it. You have yours, speak yours. We disagree? Welcome to the internet. Debate / don't agree / agree to disagree. Whatever. We shouldn't have to devolve into name calling however. You want to debate me on a game I've played or watched videos of, feel free. I don't mind at all. I might take a bit to reply and like to edit my posts when I think of more to say, but we all have our quirks.

On the guy who runs Night Dive. I personally think the guys who made System Shock 1 know it better. But that's just my opinion. I'm not claiming it as fact. Just an opinion. You don't agree? No worries, that's your opinion.

My opinion: Many people these days confuse a debate with an argument. I love a good debate, but many take it as an argument. It's annoying but that's life. Who's right? No'one. Who's wrong? No'one. It's all opinion.

So for me, I LOVE System Shock. Played the first game around 95 I think (CD version). LOVED IT. Loved how different it was to anything else out there. System Shock 2 was announced many years later. Played the demo and loved what I saw. Played the full version a bit later and loved that. Joined my first forum (TTLG) not longer after due to my love of System Shock universe and have been an avid member of the community ever since.

If I love a game series/universe I get passionately into it. That's me. Does that make me better than anyone? Hell no. Does not mean for a second that I wont debate you on it though :p.

And that's my 5 cents.

I don't think I've called you names?

Oh, you mean grumpy purist? I thought that was pretty mild. Certainly no insult intended, so I apologize if I've given offense.

Also, I'm quite used to disagreeing with people. That's what being outspoken is like.

Again, what I said is that I don't think it's reasonable to call Nightdive dishonest and deceitful, that's all. That doesn't mean I'm trying to prevent you from having that opinion, though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "knowing" System Shock - but, judging from Underworld Ascendant - I don't have much faith in Otherside to do justice to their old work.

I don't need to remind you that Ridley Scott made Prometheus, right? He was the guy who made Alien.

Things happen when people grow old and complacent - which is what I fear happened to Otherside - but I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Even if Otherside "know" System Shock better than Nightdive - I don't think that means Nightdive can't make a great System Shock. I don't see why developer knowledge of the original would be a requisite for that.

Again, I can point to Alien - and the sequel Aliens. James Cameron made Aliens - and that turned out pretty well, even if he had no part in Alien.

Finally, I don't know if you've noticed - but Otherside have actively supported and condoned Nightdive's Kickstarter campaign and their take on System Shock.

So, the people who "know" System Shock the best aren't the people who think there's a problem.

I have to say I don't think your arguments are very convincing - so we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[6742bc61a5962icemann]

My last post was directed to the thread, not just you :p. So I wasn't arguing anything in that, just stating my stance.

Movies and video games are different. I completely agree with you on Prometheus (hated it) and Aliens (my favorite of the "Alien" films). On movies you could name zillions of examples where directors and movie makers lost their way (aka George Lucas). For video games I've yet to see (or can't immediately think of any) examples of where they messed up majorly due to themselves alone and where another did far better with a franchise.

Feel free to give examples though.

[6742bc61a5c6eTachikoma]

Yeah, all games will be Bioshock because developers need to be paid. Well, except - of course - the games you like, because no profit was involved with those. Those were all made by pure artists that didn't need funding or wages.

That makes "Zylon" sense, I'm sure.

You're forgetting one interesting detail, Night Dive is not making this game with their own money, people are funding development in this case, not Night Dive, 2K, EA or Bethesda. People have all rights to demand System Shock, not Bioshock game or something else, especially because they're backing this Kickstarter. For Bioshock there is always 2K which own this franchise.

This is also why I love MN9. People wanted Rockman successor, but in the end they received absolute garbage which is worse than most of Rockman-inspired indie games right now. The most hilarious thing is that people themselves funded its development, not Capcom or someone else.

[6742bc61a6006DKDArtagnan]

You're forgetting one interesting detail, Night Dive is not making this game with their own money, people are funding development in this case, not Night Dive, 2K, EA or Bethesda. People have all rights to demand System Shock, not Bioshock game or something else, especially because they're backing this Kickstarter. For Bioshock there is always 2K which own this franchise.

This is also why I love MN9. People wanted Rockman successor, but in the end they received absolute garbage which is worse than most of Rockman-inspired indie games right now. The most hilarious thing is that people themselves funded its development, not Capcom or someone else.

Nightdive isn't asking for money in return for delivering what everyone wants. They're pitching a project exactly like you would pitch a project to a publisher.

It's then up to the publisher - or the backers - whether they want to invest or not.

The difference here is that the publisher can't assume control of the project and force changes because of deadlines or ignorance of what it takes to make a good game, thank god.

The only reasonable demand we can make is that Nightdive stay true to their word, which is way, way too early to tell at this point.

[6742bc61a6130Tachikoma]

And they actually promised us System Shock game, not Bioshock. Not only that, they promised to listen to the people, especially on this forum, you can find their topics here actually.

So, guess you just proved my point.

[6742bc61a6387DKDArtagnan]

And they actually promised us System Shock game, not Bioshock. Not only that, they promised to listen to the people, especially on this forum, you can find their topics here actually.

So, guess you just proved my point.

So, 3 days after the Kickstarter campaign was started and before development was even funded, you predicted they were lying and were really making a Bioshock reboot - and that they wouldn't be listening to anyone for the next 18 months - except for the evil profit monkey commanding them to make an as anti-LG System Shock as they possibly could?

The Legend of Nightdive and the last System Shock corruption crusade

Wow, this place is really full of.... interesting and reasonable SS fans.

[6742bc61a6483voodoo47]

we are also not short on annoying newcomers lately.

[6742bc61a6569DKDArtagnan]

Trouble in paradise?

[6742bc61a66b6fox]

..
[pemberton.jpg expired]

[6742bc61a67e5DKDArtagnan]

The hivemind is working hard to oust any rabble-rousers inappropriately free of the ancient past

You guys don't have to worry. I came here for open-minded discussion of the reboot, because it has me genuinely excited. I knew there would be scepticism - but this level of RPG Codex/NMA resistance - I didn't predict.

I'll leave you to it soon enough.

Seriously, you let Zylon of QT3 fame be a moderator? Talk about the wrong person for the job.

[6742bc61a68bevoodoo47]

I'll let you onto something even more horrifying - I'm actually a (co)admin here.