SSR RPG Mechanics Discussion.

[66eede2b52481XKILLJOY98]

From a gameplay standpoint I'd love vending machines (replicators). If Shock 2 is considered canon...

Why wouldn't it be?

[66eede2b527d1XKILLJOY98]

Well they're retconning SS1's events, so maybe they're fine with retconning SS2.

No they are not, what makes you say that?

Just because there are more than one versions of a game doesn't mean something is retconned.

[66eede2b52a75icemann]

Think of it more like an alternate universe basically.

Like say, Devil May Cry 1-4 and then the reboot. Not linked at all between the 2 branches.

[66eede2b52bceSchuler]

I'll point out that there's precedent to this - Black Mesa, a remake of Half-Life that was by fans, for profit, and didn't retcon anything or change core mechanics. And you know? The fanbase loves it, and so do I (though the original should be played first).

[66eede2b52ceficemann]

Metroid Zero Mission - (Remake of Metroid on the NES) - Graphics update, some added bits at the end, extra gear. Very well liked by fans.

[66eede2b52fd1Hikari]

Here's what I'm thinking now:

The R-Grade rig is just a millitary set of implants right? It's likely other implants exist and that crew members would have those.

What if the RPG mechanic is savanging skillsofts and or materials from dead crew members and or cyborgs to use/modify to use with your implants? Like... Not lock out what you can or can't do if you decide to focus knowledge on guns (+accuracy and damage) vs Technical (+repair and modifying stuff) but there's only so many things to get and so much skull space for things to slot in at a time.

I'd say you could hot swap, but frankly that just leads to tedium. However I liked shock2's approach that just because you path in Navy at the start doesn't mean you can't pick up psionics to help out now and then, or marine with some hacking for security, or the like.

Point is less 'hurr durr exp' and more think on what a millitary set of implants would have as its main strengths.

adaptability to whatever you pick up.
robustness to not fry when confronted by the stresses of combat.
a far wider range in what software you can load in verses task oriented civilian or even police models.

[66eede2b53125icemann]

That or a ability choice system like how Dishonored does it, except along hacking lines.

Eg - Robot Hack (Cost 50 Energy) - Take control for a limited time (permanent if at level 2 of the ability) of 1 robotic enemy.

[66eede2b532ebHikari]

Well what i described initially is very what Shock1 does anyway so look at that and expand along logical lines. Repairing a robot you fried and or bashed in so it'll serve you with a chance it either immediately or over time will flip back to SHODAN's programming/control seems interesting. Sure you have allies... but how long and how far can you trust them to stay loyal?

The big thing is if you have like a +cyberspace abilities or something else for cyberspace/e-space. How do you prevent shodan from becoming an anti-climactic boss fight without making her nearly impossible if you don't specialize in hacking?

[66eede2b53689voodoo47]

Black Mesa, a remake of Half-Life that was by fans, for profit, and didn't retcon anything or change core mechanics.

uhh, are we talking about the same game? excluding the storyline, they've changed pretty much everything. it's basically HL2 in Black Mesa.

[66eede2b539ceSchuler]

uhh, are we talking about the same game? excluding the storyline, they've changed pretty much everything. it's basically HL2 in Black Mesa.

What core mechanics were changed in Black Mesa? Same weapons, same locations, same enemies, same health/HEV stations. Only thing I can think of is some of the weapon caps being lowered and duckjumping being automatic, as well as more voice acting and some cuts from unpopular chapters (vent maze in We've Got Hostiles, rail maze in On A Rail). But none of that is nearly as extreme as introducing RPG elements into SS1.

[66eede2b53d73icemann]

The big thing is if you have like a +cyberspace abilities or something else for cyberspace/e-space. How do you prevent shodan from becoming an anti-climactic boss fight without making her nearly impossible if you don't specialize in hacking?

The trick I guess would be to have it be that there are multiple ways to "win". Some via abilities, others player skill etc.

If they do indeed go with RPG mechanics (as going by the amount raised on Kickstarter so far it looks semi-likely), I hope they go the Bioshock DLC route and have a "1994 Mode", where all of that is removed and gameplay is more SS1 original centric. Do that and you please everyone. Yes it requires a HELL of a lot of more work I know, but do that and everyone's happy. Did wonders for the Bioshock fans who preferred the gameplay style of 1 & 2 over Infinite's and made for a better game imo as it appeased both camps. Would all just be a matter of balancing I'd assume.

[66eede2b53ed4Hikari]

I could see it as

RPG Mode Selected:
Enemys are spawned in that are statted out for RPG Complete with RPG loot tables.

Classic Mode Selected
Different enemy pool is called on spawning those enemies that look the same but are statted the same as vanilla shock.

[66eede2b540a9voodoo47]

I have watched a LP very recently, as I wanted to see the depth of the rework, and to my surprise, found out that (as mentioned), pretty much the only things that have been preserved is the story (and related events), and general locations. apart from that, it's HL2 running the HL1 story - the new devs have used the HL2 engine to mold the orig game into their own version of it. mechanics like firefights, collisions, AIs etc, that's all pretty much pure HL2. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I really don't understand how anyone can see it as "true to the original".

because it isn't - it looks like, feels like, and plays like HL2, just at a different place.

[66eede2b545e4Schuler]

I have watched a LP very recently, as I wanted to see the depth of the rework, and to my surprise, found out that (as mentioned), pretty much the only things that have been preserved is the story (and related events), and general locations. apart from that, it's HL2 running the HL1 story - the new devs have used the HL2 engine to mold the orig game into their own version of it. mechanics like firefights, collisions, AIs etc, that's all pretty much pure HL2. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I really don't understand how anyone can see it as "true to the original".

because it isn't - it looks like, feels like, and plays like HL2, just at a different place.

I..don't know how to explain my response without recapping what I've already said. Mechanically, HL1 and 2 are already similar. Yes, your weapons are less varied and exotic, something I still object to, but the only game changer is the Gravity Gun and other physics-based puzzles/weapons, which aren't present in Black Mesa, and at the end of the day you're still in an FPS. What made HL2 different was the atmosphere, the setting, the enemies and the frankly groundbreaking facial animation. What would a HL1 remake look like to you? Because we already have the guns, enemies and environment. It feels different, well, of course it does, but that's an effect of the modern lighting and visual effects, and the expanded levels. Is that the issue? The new, bigger levels?

Like, Deus Ex: HR changed mechanics. It introduced a melee takedown system, made grenades no longer stack, knocked out enemies can be woken up, and it introduced a persuasion system through conversations, not to mention the hacking minigame replacing the progress bar from DX. These all changed gameplay and altered strategies players would use.

A HL1/BM comparison video for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDL138ZXFIA

And a much longer one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xex7ioUq3JM

[66eede2b547c4voodoo47]

the first video displays locations that most closely resemble the original, yet it still confirms what I've said in my previous post. the second one makes it even more apparent. again, Black Mesa is exactly what it is - HL2 running the HL1 story. nothing less, nothing more. would compare it to playing the easter egg Wolfenstein levels in Doom (and now I have to say Doom the original. thank you very much, id).

if I were to describe what a faithful remake is - squash bugs, get rid of lowres stuff, update the textures, smooth out rough edges. don't touch the mechanics, don't touch the gameplay. and yeeah, I'm all SCP again.

[66eede2b549bbfox]

Oh, at first I thought you meant Doom's easter egg original Doom levels. Good thing you clarified that you meant the original Doom's easter egg Wolfenstein levels instead.

[66eede2b54b41voodoo47]

yeah, don't you just hate it when new games have exactly the same names as the old ones, forcing people to add years of release and other stuff to clarify. dumb trend nobody should follow.

riiight?

[66eede2b54cfbfox]

As the great John Lee Hooker once said:

Doom, Doom, Doom, Doom
I'm gonna shoot you right down
Right off your feet
Take you home with me
Put you in my house

I like it like that
Oh, when you talk like that
You knocks me out
Right off of my feet
Hoo, hoo, hoo, whoa, yeah

Walk the walk baby
Talk that talk right now baby
You can talk that talk, baby
Talk that talk, that baby talk

Can't take it like that
No baby

  (yeah, he posted a bunch of those kekekes and xoxos too.)

[66eede2b54ee9Nameless Voice]

There's Doom.  It's a game from 1993.
Then there's Doom 4.  That's a game from 2016.   (However, the number 4 was accidentally left off the box and loading screen.)

Simple.

[66eede2b5535bZylonBane]

again, Black Mesa is exactly what it is - HL2 running the HL1 story.

Considering that HL2 runs on an upgraded version of the HL1 engine, and you play the same guy, in the same suit, with (almost) the same crowbar, that's not really much of a damning statement. HL2 was so successful as a sequel precisely because they made it feel so much like its predecessor.

[66eede2b5582fJoin2]

What core mechanics were changed in Black Mesa? Same weapons, same locations, same enemies, same health/HEV stations. Only thing I can think of is some of the weapon caps being lowered and duckjumping being automatic, as well as more voice acting and some cuts from unpopular chapters (vent maze in We've Got Hostiles, rail maze in On A Rail). But none of that is nearly as extreme as introducing RPG elements into SS1.

In my book it is more extreme. Removing good stuff (those cuts, automating gameplay mechanics) = bad. Adding good stuff (RPG system) = good.

[66eede2b55c6eDKDArtagnan]

Considering that HL2 runs on an upgraded version of the HL1 engine, and you play the same guy, in the same suit, with (almost) the same crowbar, that's not really much of a damning statement. HL2 was so successful as a sequel precisely because they made it feel so much like its predecessor.

HL2 = Source engine. HL1 = Heavily modified Quake engine. Now, the Source engine DOES have "bits" of the Quake/HL1 engine, but it's essentially an entirely new engine.

As for HL2 - it was nothing like HL1 to me. It felt like an engine demonstration with a bunch of action segments loosely tied together. I disliked it so much I couldn't even finish it.

HL1 was a decent shooter with a strong beginning in terms of narrative. Quite overrated, though.

[66eede2b55f16Schuler]

Having a different engine is not the same thing as having different gameplay. Besides physics (which was down to Havok as well), gameplay was much the same - shoot guys, shoot more guys, shoot some aliens, hear exposition, solve a puzzle to progress. New bits added were the long driving sections, which I didn't like, and the Gravity Gun, which despite its popularity I also didn't like owing to its unwieldy nature.

[66eede2b56374DKDArtagnan]

Having a different engine is not the same thing as having different gameplay. Besides physics (which was down to Havok as well), gameplay was much the same - shoot guys, shoot more guys, shoot some aliens, hear exposition, solve a puzzle to progress. New bits added were the long driving sections, which I didn't like, and the Gravity Gun, which despite its popularity I also didn't like owing to its unwieldy nature.

Definitely, they both had a lot of shooting - but the level design and pacing were both extremely different. At least, that's how I remember it. It's been a while, I have to say.