SSR: Who has decided not to back it?

[673171d839721pripyatbeast]

Stephen Kick here, first off, we've taken all the feedback we initially requested, and that you've so generously given us over the last few months and gone through all of it. As stated before we are a small team and between preparing the demo, the Kickstarter and keeping up with the crowdfunding effort in general we haven't had the time to come back and address the concerns a lot of you have. We're getting out KS updates when we can but I thought I'd share some of what we've learned right here.

1. I hope everyone that has tried the demo has enjoyed it. It was a labor of love and was intended to showcase the overall look and feel we want to achieve with the full game upon release. It is pre-alpha (specifically a vertical slice) so optimization and performance aside I am extremely pleased with how it was received - though as stated on the KS and intro to the demo, everything is subject to change...and expect a lot to change.

2. The original music is coming back in a very exciting way. If you haven't listened to the track we collaborated on with Zircon, check it out and let us know what you think. The game won't be purely orchestral.

3. Introducing more gameplay elements/mechanics such as RPG leveling, crafting, etc is not going to detract or alter the core experience. We have very talented designers on our team that won't violate the foundation of what makes a Shock game what it is. The elements that we've proposed are not final, if they don't work out, they won't make it in the game - but the most important thing is that we didn't wan't to deliver the same exact experience you've all had playing Shock before.

4. I've been developing games since 2007 - went to school for Game Design (not business), worked at a AAA, shipped a few titles, started my own studio and resurrected my favorite franchise along with almost 100 other titles over the last 4 years. I understand the game and what it means to the community and the industry - I've put together a team of the most experienced, passionate, and committed developers to remake one of the greatest games of all time and my hope is that even if you don't back us, I hope you enjoy the final game. We're making it for you guys and all the Shock fans first.

[673171d8399dfSynaesthesia]

I absolutely loved the demo. I missed my SV-23 Dartgun, but I was able to bash some robots and mutants with my pipe. The nostalgia is off the charts with the demo - it looks accurate to Citadel, it feels accurate, and almost nothing looks out of place to me. The addition of railings, benches, seats, tables, etc. really brings the empty spaces to life.

Even if the Kickstarter tiers aren't completely met, I'd love to see you flesh out areas of the station that were closed off by doors that were "broken beyond repair". I always got the sensation that the game was rushed a bit in development and some of the later levels (L6, as an example) were not as detailed as they could've been.

[673171d839b77Learonys]

Thanks for your continued interest in this website!

Regarding your response, i want to say a few things.

I think i'm going to speak on behalf of many people here, but our feedback and support/criticism we're showing is in fact a selfless act. You want to change the gameplay so people that experienced the original have more of an incentive to play it, but that's the opposite of what we want to achieve. We simply want to bring the series to their former glory so the general crowd can experience what we experienced.

Please, don't make this game for us. Make it for the people that still need to experience a true Shock game. We simply don't need this remaster, we already know of the Enhanced edition and fully embrace it. All we could possibly need is a Source code release.

[673171d83a1cbJoin2]

If you haven't listened to the track we collaborated on with Zircon, check it out and let us know what you think. The game won't be purely orchestral.

It's not too bad I guess, though I'd much prefer old school techstep with more complex drum patterns, chopped amen and general variety. The type of drum & bass as heard in System Shock 2, for example. Engineering and Ops 2 in particular. Variety is key though, so I cannot judge based on what little I've heard as ideally every track would be unique and special.

Anyhow, a number of legitimate concerns many people have put forward aside I think this shows a lot of promise.

We're making it for you guys and all the Shock fans first.

I respect and appreciate that. Though of course the cynic in me doesn't take those words at face value, but I think you are genuine. This industry needs more passionate, unconstrained developers.

Please, don't make this game for us. Make it for the people that still need to experience a true Shock game. We simply don't need this remaster, we already know of the Enhanced edition and fully embrace it. All we could possibly need is a Source code release.

Speak for yourself. I need new (good) Immersive Sims. I don't actually intend to play SS1 ever again, after only one playthrough. I have quite a few problems with it (some of which I went into in the level design thread) besides the obvious issue of controls. If done right, this could get many replays and override the original as a play experience.

[673171d83a791Dj 127]

Speak for yourself. I need new (good) Immersive Sims. I don't actually intend to play SS1 ever again, after only one playthrough. I have quite a few problems with it (some of which I went into in the level design thread) besides the obvious issue of controls. If done right, this could get many replays and override the original as a play experience.

Sounds like you don't actually want a remake of System Shock 1, you want a SS 2ized version of Citadel Station. Even then, I would prefer a brand new game than a weird mish mash of old levels and new gameplay systems, especially because remakes are so hard to do right. But hey, if System Shock: Contracts is done right it could be worthwhile for most of the audience.

(Cheeky Hitman reference again)

[673171d83a93aZanderat]

Thanks for the post, Kick.  Good to see that you are reading our concerns and hear them. 

[673171d83ac9eZylonBane]

We simply don't need this remaster...

Ignore him. We don't even know who he is. We think he wandered in with the cleaning crew.

[673171d83af87Shaun]

@Nyarlathotep (Stephen Kick), cool information - love the remixed music (and also like the orchestral score - I personally can see a mix of both being good, though I did need to adjust a bit)!  You might also consider an official campaign page update with some of the information you posted, as I hadn't seen the music discussed there since getting feedback!

Full disclaimer, I'm totally a backer of this project and was extremely excited when I found out it was actually happening.  I played SS1 and 2 back in the day, and they rank (collectively, but 1 is probably my favorite) tied with my other two favorite game (series) of all time (Deus Ex and Wing Commander). 

So I get that people have concerns, whether it's RPG elements or music or level changes or what have you.  But sometimes I think getting so caught up in these early details and not backing because of worries it won't be EXACTLY how you or I might do it (and let's face it, everyone would do things slightly different from each other in some way or another) misses the point, and also the opportunity, one we might not get again.  Nightdive cared enough to rerelease the first two games playable on modern systems.  They cared enough to put out a tech demo instead of just a concept.  And it's pretty clear they're active in the community and taking feedback.

It's obvious a lot of the people here care deeply for System Shock.  I can understand being unsure about certain things (I myself have some RPG element concerns as I like the whole chip upgrade system better than something like leveling), but I also have to wonder if people aren't letting perfection (and not even objective perfection, but subjective versions) be the enemy of the good. 

THIS is our shot at a System Shock remaster as well as our chance to determine the budget.  It's something I've been waiting for for a long time.  I can't imagine not wanting to be at least a small part of it.

Just my two cents - everybody has to act to suit themselves and their own integrity, but I'd seriously feel like I was missing out if I didn't pledge to help fund this thing.

[673171d83b2baJoin2]

Sounds like you don't actually want a remake of System Shock 1, you want a SS 2ized version of Citadel Station.

I'm good either way, but since SS2 is an improvement upon SS1 in nearly every way from controls to GUI to audio design, level design and more then yeah, a SS2-ized reboot sounds excellent. Good thing a hybrid between the two games is exactly what we are getting. It's unavoidable for SSR to not bare many similarities to SS2 since SS1 is simply so archaic at this point.

I am a fan of the original game regardless, more out of respect for what it stands for and how innovative it was. The design is mostly excellent too, it's just really held back by the engine and hardware it was designed for. I have no problems with someone who is resolving those issues also expanding upon the game while they are at it, as long as the design & execution is impeccable.

[673171d83b6acLearonys]

Ignore him. We don't even know who he is. We think he wandered in with the cleaning crew.

Ayyyy, someone feels entitled and can't get his daily system-shock fix anymore <:^)

Hey... Pssht... Nobody on this world owes you anything. If you think you deserve this game more than anyone else for whatever reason, you don't. Isn't it ironic how you call me an E-janitor aswell... think about it.

Which makes me think... again, you made a baseless and empty insult. And you still wonder why people don't take you seriously. He's gonna call me dense after said this... Oh, the sheer irony... Oh wait, he's not gonna reply at all because he knows he's lost at this point.

[673171d83bab2DKDArtagnan]

Ayyyy, someone feels entitled and can't get his daily system-shock fix anymore <:^)

Hey... Pssht... Nobody on this world owes you anything. If you think you deserve this game more than anyone else for whatever reason, you don't. Isn't it ironic how you call me an E-janitor aswell... think about it.

Which makes me think... again, you made a baseless and empty insult. And you still wonder why people don't take you seriously. He's gonna call me dense after said this... Oh, the sheer irony... Oh wait, he's not gonna reply at all because he knows he's lost at this point.

Having people like Zylon as a moderator kinda rules out being able to take the site admins seriously.

It's as if they want it to break down once exposed to people not part of the tribe.

I mean, how many posts does the guy make that don't, somehow, insult someone?

[673171d83c193fox]

3. Introducing more gameplay elements/mechanics such as RPG leveling, crafting, etc is not going to detract or alter the core experience. We have very talented designers on our team that won't violate the foundation of what makes a Shock game what it is. The elements that we've proposed are not final, if they don't work out, they won't make it in the game - but the most important thing is that we didn't wan't to deliver the same exact experience you've all had playing Shock before.

But you actually made it a stretch goal. Doesn't that turn it into an obligation to deliver it, should the stretch goal be reached? Kickstarter rules probably don't bind you legally to deliver them but it's still a promise for which people will have paid you their money for.

It's things like that, that (I believe unneccessarily) sour the impression you leave in my mind. People who got burned before might interprete it as dishonest, others take it as a chaotic information or planning policy. I tend to the latter but I also have been burned before and look at such inconsistencies as warning signs. I appreciate that you are talking to us as a developer instead of a business/pr clown but when you are dealing with a cult franchise like System Shock in this day and age, projecting integrity and consistency is essential, imo. Please consider this constructive feedback as it's not meant as an attack. For you and for me, I wish you to succeed!
 

[673171d83c687DKDArtagnan]

But you actually made it a stretch goal. Doesn't that turn it into an obligation to deliver it, should the stretch goal be reached? Kickstarter rules probably don't bind you legally to deliver them but it's still a promise for which people will have paid you their money for.

It's things like that, that (I believe unneccessarily) sour the impression you leave in my mind. People who got burned before might interprete it as dishonest, others take it as a chaotic information or planning policy. I tend to the latter but I also have been burned before and look at such inconsistencies as warning signs. I appreciate that you are talking to us as a developer instead of a business/pr clown but when you are dealing with a cult franchise like System Shock in this day and age, projecting integrity and consistency is essential, imo. Please consider this constructive feedback as it's not meant as an attack. For you and for me, I wish you to succeed!

You're right, they probably shouldn't list each individual element as part of the stretch goal - except as "possible" features. But I think most reasonable fans would condone the omission of feature "X" if Nightdive can make it clear why it didn't quite work in the end.

[673171d83cc66icemann]

3. Introducing more gameplay elements/mechanics such as RPG leveling, crafting, etc is not going to detract or alter the core experience. We have very talented designers on our team that won't violate the foundation of what makes a Shock game what it is. The elements that we've proposed are not final, if they don't work out, they won't make it in the game - but the most important thing is that we didn't want to deliver the same exact experience you've all had playing Shock before.

It very much changes the core experience. To use an example: In-game you find a Magpulse lying on the ground. What happens when you go to shoot it will differ greatly between the 2 versions:

System Shock (original) - You aim, fire, base damage applied to the target.
System Shock (reboot) - You aim, fire, your skill level with that weapon is checked and adds a bonus or negative to both accuracy with the shot and to the damage applied to the target.

That's a change right there. At first thought it may not sound like much of a change, but it does flow through to the overall core experience you go on to have. Without the RPG stuff you'd be scrounging for ammo and using the weapon you like most. With it you need to factor in skill with said weapon, your willingness to update your stats with said weapon group etc etc. That's very much a change.

And I hate that remix linked. I am not a fan of new age trance at all, with the warping, dub-step etc. Give me 90s/2005 trance any day of the week over new age stuff. Gives me headaches.

PS: Thanks for coming here and posting. I'm sure many people here appreciate it.

[673171d83cfd1Kolya]

Having people like Zylon as a moderator kinda rules out being able to take the site admins seriously.

I wish. But not all of us have ZB's hilarious dry wit.

[673171d83d292RocketMan]

In a perfect world, site staff should not be taken "seriously".

[673171d83d539Join2]

And I hate that remix linked. I am not a fan of new age trance at all, with the warping, dub-step etc. Give me 90s/2005 trance any day of the week over new age stuff. Gives me headaches.

It isn't trance, techno or anything else. It is Nuerofunk, a sub-genre of drum & bass, and it is what techstep (another subgenre - like some of the music in SS2) has "evolved" into since the 2000s. Much like how dubstep is a really shitty "evolution" of trip-hop and other drum & bass subgenres.

As for administration and mod team, it's fine goddamn it. Not once have I seen powers be abused here... well, except once where a split off thread was titled very harshly (System Shocked incident).

[673171d83d840Nameless Voice]

(Cross-posted from Reddit)

To elaborate on the RPG elements (even though this is kind of the wrong thread):

System Shock 1 is a player-focused game.  Everything that you do is based entirely on your personal skill at the game.
You can do things based on which items you found and your own ability to use them correctly.  That's one of the core experiences of the game.

Adding more traditional RPG elements takes away from that player-focus.  Suddenly, more things depend on which choices you've made for your character rather than individual skill.  You don't miss your shot because you didn't aim well enough, you miss it because your character doesn't have enough skill to hold his gun steady.  You don't take a long time to solve a logic puzzle because you can't see the solution, instead you take a long time because your character's logic-puzzle-solving skill isn't high enough, etc.

I think that's a massive shift to the core experience.


Also, there's another thing: traditional RPGs have experience points awarded for certain things, which actually changes your playstyle to try to optimise the XP drops.  For example, you might feel compelled to kill every enemy if doing so gave XP, or you might feel compelled to hack every hackable system, even in favour of using the codes you'd found, if hacking gives more XP.
Those kind of things completely change how you play the game from moment to moment.
Now, SS2 didn't actually have XP like that - but SS2 didn't have levelling as such either, and you did specifically use that word.

I think the only amount of RPG elements you could get away with while keeping the core experience in tact would be to add a more complex system of hardware and hardware crafting, as I described here.  I just can't see anything else working while still feeling like Shock.  Even a more generic form of crafting (assembling medical patches from random items, for example) would feel a bit forced, out-of-character for the hacker, and "gamey".

[673171d83dcb7Zanderat]

But you actually made it a stretch goal. Doesn't that turn it into an obligation to deliver it, should the stretch goal be reached? Kickstarter rules probably don't bind you legally to deliver them but it's still a promise for which people will have paid you their money for.

It's things like that, that (I believe unneccessarily) sour the impression you leave in my mind. People who got burned before might interprete it as dishonest, others take it as a chaotic information or planning policy. I tend to the latter but I also have been burned before and look at such inconsistencies as warning signs. I appreciate that you are talking to us as a developer instead of a business/pr clown but when you are dealing with a cult franchise like System Shock in this day and age, projecting integrity and consistency is essential, imo. Please consider this constructive feedback as it's not meant as an attack. For you and for me, I wish you to succeed!

I actually interpret it as keeping an open mind and doing what is best for the game, rather than feeling locked into a mechanic or design choice that wasn't working.  I find Kick's honesty refreshing, in that regard.

[673171d83df0eZanderat]

I wish. But not all of us have ZB's hilarious dry wit.

Yup.  I am a bit like ZB in real life.  I just try to keep my posts more neutral because the internet tends to exaggerate the tone.

[673171d83e02efox]

Keeping yourself flexible and doing what is best for the game is good. And that is exactly why making such experience defining things a stretch goal is a fucking bad idea!

[673171d83e436icemann]

I actually interpret it as keeping an open mind and doing what is best for the game, rather than feeling locked into a mechanic or design choice that wasn't working.  I find Kick's honesty refreshing, in that regard.

Design choices working, or not, really come down to the perspective of the individual. I for example quite like the GUI of the original (as it fits the plot of you having the neural cyber interface in your head), but others may feel differently. Whose right?

My thinking is that if you want to go and make big changes to the core mechanics, then do it as a spin-off game or a sequel.

To give an example:

Satelite Reign which is for all intents Syndicate 3 in all but name (as it was made by many of the devs who made Syndicate 2: Syndicate Wars), does changes to the core formula of the first 2 via RPG elements (xp for kills, leveling up paths for your agents, each of your agents being a set class). Many are fine with that fact (myself included) though as it's a spiritual successor/sort of sequel and not just called "Syndicate". It also retains much of the atmosphere and "feel" of the first 2 games (much more so on the Syndicate Wars end).

[673171d83ea62Gawain]

4. I've been developing games since 2007 - went to school for Game Design (not business), worked at a AAA, shipped a few titles, started my own studio and resurrected my favorite franchise along with almost 100 other titles over the last 4 years. I understand the game and what it means to the community and the industry - I've put together a team of the most experienced, passionate, and committed developers to remake one of the greatest games of all time and my hope is that even if you don't back us, I hope you enjoy the final game. We're making it for you guys and all the Shock fans first.

Thank you very much for replying.
Please excuse my ignorance about your background. I respect you for doing something that many thought was impossible (untangling the SS license and trademark issues) and for that and many more reasons I mostly think you as a business man.
It is good to hear you have invested in good developers. I hope you will tell us more about the team.
I know you are a fan of the franchise. The comment was mostly meant to make a point that many of the great games are not made by one man (Spector, Levine, Garriot etc.) but are works of many talented people.
I don't think the franchise is in wrong or bad hands. I just wan't it to be perfect (in my subjective way).

The demo doesn't currently feel like the original enough. I hope the updated demo will sell the game to me. It is actually quite hard for me to pinpoint the exact thing. There are a lot of small little things and some bigger ones that throws me off.

I posted some of those things to the demo thread.

[673171d83ebb7hemebond]

I won't be supporting the Kickstarter because Linux.