SSR Last 24 Hours for System Shock Kickstarter!

[66ee5a17512d5Shaun]

I know most of you probably already know this, BUT, just in case:

Last 24 hours to back System Shock: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598858095/system-shock

24 hour Livestream also starting!  http://www.twitch.com/nightdivestudios

[66ee5a17515a0Aurora]

NDS sure botched their kickstarter badly, because the impression is that they've no idea what they're doing. They keep changing the stretch goals and going back on earlier plans, then announce something new out of the blue when it's already too late, and put extra goals behind impossible amounts of money in the last minute.

Why didn't they just announce their plans to the community and listen to the feedback first, then launch the kickstarter?

[66ee5a175171eDKDArtagnan]

Hindsight is 20-20, isn't it.

We're not talking about an exact science, and no one here would be able to predict the numbers.

Few people fully know what they're doing with Kickstarter - because it involves a lot of things you have no way of being certain about.

How about cutting them some slack?

At least they released a demo for the game - which is a lot more than the vast majority of campaigns manage to do.

They're going to hit 1.3M with a 900K goal. To me, that's a pretty definite success for a remake of an ancient game.

[66ee5a17518e3voodoo47]

yes, and there is no doubt they have to work like mad on thousand things at the same time, but the stretch goals could have used a better execution, no argument there.

[66ee5a1751ab2DKDArtagnan]

Oh, I agree. It was particularly unwise to make RPG mechanics a stretch goal, but at least they managed to change that one.

I also, personally, think the localisation goal was misplaced - given the tiny budget involved. I'm against localisation in general, but I do concede it's something a lot of people care about. But ahead of additional content for the game? I don't agree with that.

To be honest, I'm getting a mixed vibe when I hear the guy in charge speak. He sounds like a kid out of his depth - but he's clearly got some passion and gaming knowledge, and he seems to have the ability to run a business.

But I'd rather have that kind of guy in charge than some cold and calculated veteran developer.

I know people are wetting themselves over games like Wasteland 2 and Pillars of Eternity - but I consider those games extremely predictable and quite underwhelming, full of fan service that doesn't actually aid the games or evolve the respective genres in any way whatsoever.

Such cash-grabs are kinda sad, really.

[66ee5a1751fbcZylonBane]

I'm against localisation in general

So you think anyone who wants to play anything from Japan should just teach themselves kanji, hiragana, and katakana? You think Ice-Pick Lodge fandom should be limited to Russian speakers? You think everyone who doesn't speak English should be denied all games developed in English-language countries? Really?

[66ee5a1752169Nameless Voice]

I assume he's one of those people who thinks that the only localisation that should be done is subtitles.

[66ee5a17523a5Kolya]

I think DKD mentioned elsewhere having been burnt by badly done localisations. And I'm quite sure he only means those of English games, which he doesn't need anyway.
And I would somewhat agree with his point if it wasn't common today that multiple languages are included in a game. So if the locale sucks and you understand the original language you can just switch.
Also localisation doesn't take up much development time. It's mainly a cost factor. Games are designed from the start to support multiple languages and then you just need to pay an outside contractor (usually in the target country) to do the translation, voices etc.

source: I used to work for the company that translated Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings to German (among others).

[66ee5a1752730Marvin]

I can only hope they'll be able to contact the old LGS German localization company provided it's still in business. The Thief games and SS2 have the best German video game translations ever made.

[66ee5a17528eeKolya]

Aparently they are still in business. http://www.toneworx.com/

Even though we at toneworx professionally offer a variety of services, our core competence does lie in the localisation and sound recording for PC and video games.

[66ee5a1752cb2icemann]

I can only hope they'll be able to contact the old LGS German localization company provided it's still in business. The Thief games and SS2 have the best German video game translations ever made.

I'd recommend checking out the rom hacking community in that case. Some damn fine efforts by the fan community to translate Japanese games to english. Without them we'd never be able to play those games at all.

Many of those projects take years due to the hacking required, finding good translators etc etc.

[66ee5a1752e5fJosiahJack]

Hai sao des ne.

[66ee5a1752f65Kolya]

Ni hao!

[66ee5a17532b0DKDArtagnan]

So you think anyone who wants to play anything from Japan should just teach themselves kanji, hiragana, and katakana? You think Ice-Pick Lodge fandom should be limited to Russian speakers? You think everyone who doesn't speak English should be denied all games developed in English-language countries? Really?

Why am I not surprised this would be your first assumption?

Generally, you don't think highly of much at all, do you.

[66ee5a175356bDKDArtagnan]

Actually, my problem with localisation is somewhat more involved.

As in, there's more than one issue. One is about games in particular - and another is about the world as a whole.

I'm not sure this forum is the best place to get into it wholeheartedly, so maybe I should just leave it.

But in terms of games - I think any piece of art is best experienced in its original form - or as close to the original form as possible. That means a game is, partially, only as good as its translation. Certainly when it comes to games that rely heavily on narrative and writing in general.

The problem with "perfect" translations is that they don't exist. Even so, any real effort towards perfect translation is surprisingly expensive in terms of time and resources - so I think said effort should be weighed carefully for pros and cons. When I say surprisingly expensive, I assume people here don't quite know the costs involved with accurate and tonally aware translations, coupled with quality voice acting in other languages. If I'm wrong, then I apologize in advance.

That said, it's not that complicated. As with anything, you get what you pay for. To a certain extent, that is. For my part, I think "celebrity voice acting" is close to useless, and all but certainly not within the scope of their budget regardless.

Do I think a tiny team on a very limited budget should go out of their way to provide the perfect translation to a very wide audience - given the inherently small audience? No, I don't.

Do I think, for a game like System Shock Remake with a 1.3M dollars budget and 30 people working on it, an expensive localisation effort is the right choice? Not entirely sure, but I don't think so.

My opinion based on available information is that they should make do with subtitles - and spend those limited funds on enhancing the game instead. Should they half-ass it and go on the cheap for some questionable translation and voice-work? Not in my opinion, no.

[66ee5a17536aaMarvin]

Subtitles should be sufficient, I agree, but they should have said that in the reward, otherwise there'll be a shitstorm.

[66ee5a175394bDKDArtagnan]

Subtitles should be sufficient, I agree, but they should have said that in the reward, otherwise there'll be a shitstorm.

You're right, people will have a hard time swallowing 100K for subtitles alone.

So, the choice is already made.

[66ee5a1753bc0Hikari]

For once we agree on something.


Example. Look at the super robot war franchise. It is a glorious celebration of mecha in a turn based rpg system that follows the general tropes and other oddities of the genre (for good or ill.) However due to the fact it takes from several franchises at a time (gundam, mazinger, and getter robo being the main three staples along with an ever changing cast pulled from everything from tekkaman, to brainpowered, and Evangelion) you are never going to get the rights untangled for an english release. Yes there are the OG games that feature just the original banspiro mecha, but that's maybe a handful of games out of a franchise that itself has existed since the 8 bit era of gaming.

Or maybe you feel for me to watch Metropolis i need to learn German even though it is an amazing film (what of it still exists) especially given it was made in the 1920's.

So long as you avoid issues like anime dubbing suffered under where entire scripts would get changed and the voice actors didn't care, I'm all for localization efforts.

[66ee5a1753edcZylonBane]

Why am I not surprised this would be your first assumption?

I tend to assume that people mean what they say, not that they suck at communicating.

[66ee5a1754361DKDArtagnan]

I tend to assume that people mean what they say, not that they suck at communicating.

Let me give you a little tip:

Next time you want to get the point of a sentence, don't ignore half of it - and try to include everything that's being said about that which you respond to in your quote.

This should open more doors for you in future exchanges.

Also, some additional help to make you get the point:

Localisation != translation.

With that in mind, maybe you can see how it's possible to not be against both and yet be against the former.

Even more help:

You can be against something without actually insisting it should be gone - because you realise that your own position isn't more important than the position of other people.

This, especially, is something I think you could stand to practice a little.

[66ee5a17546a0ZylonBane]

Next time you want to get the point of a sentence, don't ignore half of it - and try to incl

Please feel free to point out which part of your post would have tempered your declaration of being "against localisation in general". Because I saw no such thing.

[66ee5a17549e9DKDArtagnan]

Please feel free to point out which part of your post would have tempered your declaration of being "against localisation in general". Because I saw no such thing.

*pretending that you care beyond yet another failure of yours to "win" an important internet battle*

Shall we try again:

Here's your perception of what I meant:

So you think anyone who wants to play anything from Japan should just teach themselves kanji, hiragana, and katakana? You think Ice-Pick Lodge fandom should be limited to Russian speakers? You think everyone who doesn't speak English should be denied all games developed in English-language countries? Really?

1. I'm against localisation in general, not translation. That's one thing you don't seem to understand.
2. In general means exceptions can exist where I'm not against it. That's another thing you don't seem to understand.
3. I'm against it, but I recognise that other people want it. I generally don't insist on getting my way, so I would never say localisation shouldn't exist - only that I think it's often not for the best in terms of the experience of playing the game.

It's not rocket science.

[66ee5a1754e53DKDArtagnan]

For once we agree on something.


Example. Look at the super robot war franchise. It is a glorious celebration of mecha in a turn based rpg system that follows the general tropes and other oddities of the genre (for good or ill.) However due to the fact it takes from several franchises at a time (gundam, mazinger, and getter robo being the main three staples along with an ever changing cast pulled from everything from tekkaman, to brainpowered, and Evangelion) you are never going to get the rights untangled for an english release. Yes there are the OG games that feature just the original banspiro mecha, but that's maybe a handful of games out of a franchise that itself has existed since the 8 bit era of gaming.

Or maybe you feel for me to watch Metropolis i need to learn German even though it is an amazing film (what of it still exists) especially given it was made in the 1920's.

So long as you avoid issues like anime dubbing suffered under where entire scripts would get changed and the voice actors didn't care, I'm all for localization efforts.

I don't know why you think I'm saying anything about what you should do.

My opinion is a subjective statement based on what I, personally, think.

In that same way, I can say that I'm an agnostic - and that's the only position that makes any sense to me. I'm not, however, saying that you should be an agnostic.

I don't go around telling people what they should or shouldn't do. I might make a suggestion or two, but I don't feel like commanding people to do anything.

Also, yes, if you want to enjoy a German film "properly" - I really do think learning the language is the best way. However, I'm not saying it's the only way or the easiest way.

[66ee5a175529fZylonBane]

1. I'm against localisation in general, not translation. That's one thing you don't seem to understand.

"Translation" and "localisation" are usually used interchangeably. If you're making a specific distinction between the two, it's your responsibility to explain it. You have thus far failed to do so.

2. In general means exceptions can exist where I'm not against it. That's another thing you don't seem to understand.

If the exceptions were important, you would have mentioned them. You didn't.

3. I'm against it, but I recognise that other people want it. I generally don't insist on getting my way, so I would never say localisation shouldn't exist - only that I think it's often not for the best in terms of the experience of playing the game.

Being "against" something in fact DOES mean you think it shouldn't exist. If that's not what you mean, you shouldn't be using that word. You should just be saying you don't like it.

I guess the lesson here is that you don't get to be smug about sucking at expressing your opinions.