System Shock 2 /Speedrun/M1/0:12:34

[67452ae3330a2unn_atropos]

M1

, Any % RTA 0:12:34 World record
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3VguJ0T3eI

https://www.twitch.tv/m1_account

[67452ae333249ZylonBane]

So basically he godmodes and noclips his way through the entire game. Ugh.

[67452ae3333e6voodoo47]

yes. as I've mentioned a couple of times, I don't see any difference between (an user doing such a cheatrun) triggering a glitch that allows a faster completion of the game, and (me dml) triggering the dieshodandie script one second after the game starts, thus setting a permanent world record of cheatrunning SS2.

but different things row peoples' boats, I suppose.

[67452ae33351eDjant]

Maybe the major difference is that a user is taking advantage of glitches and bugs in the game, while you're using an external script to modify how the game works? I can understand people not liking speedruns that exploit glitches, but there's certainly a difference to be noted here.

[67452ae333685voodoo47]

so him mashing his keyboard to trigger a functionality that allows him to complete the game faster is ok, while me triggering it with a text file is not - meaning somehow I'm cheating too much? that's rich.

you either cheat, or not, there is no such thing as "fair level of cheating".

[67452ae3337a6Djant]

The difference is he's doing it within the game without invoking a cheat code, you're doing it from outside. Of course, this distinction may not matter to you, but in many speedruns it's been considered valid to exploit bugs and glitches to get a better run, and invalid to use external scripts to modify the game. If you want to argue with them, you're more than welcome.

[67452ae333921voodoo47]

the script is part of the game. he is exploiting a game functionality by triggering unintended behavior. and so am I - arguing that the method of execution matters is bonkers.

also, I see no difference in typing the UNDEAD cheat code into the console and utilizing a glitch in the level load system that does the same thing. again, a cheat is a cheat, talking about one being external and the other internal and stuff like that is laughable.

it's like that person who has set the world record in Marioland2 (I think) by attaching some hardware mod to the console that emulates pressing the buttons 1000 times a second, making the game go nuts and skip directly to the end screen. might as well make a program in VB that writes VICTORY! on your screen once you teabag your spacebar.

[67452ae333a40Djant]

So are you implying speedruns should not utilize bugs or exploits? Usually with games having exploits as major as the one shown here, there's a separate category for runs not using it.

[67452ae33401dLearonys]

the script is part of the game. he is exploiting a game functionality by triggering unintended behavior. and so am I - arguing that the method of execution matters is bonkers.

also, I see no difference in typing the UNDEAD cheat code into the console and utilizing a glitch in the level load system that does the same thing. again, a cheat is a cheat, talking about one being external and the other internal and stuff like that is laughable.

it's like that person who has set the world record in Marioland2 (I think) by attaching some hardware mod to the console that emulates pressing the buttons 1000 times a second, making the game go nuts and skip directly to the end screen. might as well make a program in VB that writes VICTORY! on your screen once you teabag your spacebar.

The difference to be noted here is being able to exploit them in an unmodified version of the game or not, e.g. the "vanilla" version. Adding or removing only the smallest script to your game makes it modded and therefore (in most cases) doesn't qualify to be submitted on the "official" speedrunning sites. That doesn't make your run any less legit, after all you set your own rules if you want to run it in your own way.
The end result may be exactly the same, but once again there is a difference which lies in getting there. Being able to find, execute and perfect certain keystrokes, and using them to save time at any cost, while being confined within the boundaries of a "vanilla" game is what matters in the Any% run that most people try to fall in.

But i'm not saying that you're wrong here that the fun-factor of running a game goes down when you excessively use glitches, bugs and exploits, in fact I wholeheartedly agree with you. I've speedrun C&C Renegade myself, and the game actually has a hidden option to teleport you to any location at any time by pressing at a random location on the map screen while holding the Ctrl button. It perfectly falls within the Any% rules, but I refused to use it. It's just no challenge, nor is it fun. And I was lucky to get away with it, because nobody else was really running the game at that time.

Why did I get lucky? To say someone speedruns a game without caring if he is fast or the fastest, doesn't really make any sense to me. That's what you speedrun for, the thrill of doing it insanely fast, and the competition that adds to this thrill. It's a truly exciting thing if you care about the game that you run. If I noticed that someone else decided to abuse the hell out of glitches and bugs in an Any% run, to see him finish 4 times as fast of me, and ends up on the top of a leaderboard, it devalues my effort in some way, because someone simply did it much faster. What's my strategy worth if someone uses another one and is 4 times as fast? If i want recognition, I have to follow the Any% rules AND be the fastest. If you don't care about this, all the power to you, but that usually isn't the case if you decide to upload your run (and therefore most likely want some kind of recognition in some way).

So, enough babbling about speedruns now?

[67452ae33417bvoodoo47]

no, me angry, so not enough. lemme get this right - if I was able to trigger endgame by bashing my head onto the cryotube 3.14 times, it would be ok, but triggering it by a key combination somehow wouldn't? yeeaah nope. again, doesn't matter whether you pull the trigger with your pinky or your thumb, the bullet still flies out.

speedruns should be about memory and skill, not about how much you can screw the game up.

[67452ae3344e9Learonys]

no, me angry, so not enough. lemme get this right - if I was able to trigger endgame by bashing my head onto the cryotube 3.14 times, it would be ok, but triggering it by a key combination somehow wouldn't? yeeaah nope. again, doesn't matter whether you pull the trigger with your pinky or your thumb, the bullet still flies out.

speedruns should be about memory and skill, not about how much you can screw the game up.

Then do it your way. Once again, you are setting your own rules. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Just like in sports, let's take per example sprinting there are many categories. You can make your own category, but for the ease of the other athletes and the crowd (and only this reason), it won't be officially recognized. if there was enough of a crowd however, you could always get something going.

We're both looking at this from different perspectives. But I'm not trying to say which one is the best, I'm trying to tell you why something ends up being the way it is. That's the whole point of the "vanilla" thing i'm talking about, and that people that think like you are a minority.

[67452ae33463fvoodoo47]

again, why should the method of triggering the cheat matter?

[67452ae334df4Learonys]

again, why should the method of triggering the cheat matter?

The difference to be noted here is being able to exploit them in an unmodified version of the game or not, e.g. the "vanilla" version.

but for the ease of the other athletes and the crowd (and only this reason), it won't be officially recognized.

[67452ae334ef6voodoo47]

it can be triggered in vanilla.

[67452ae335106Learonys]

it can be triggered in vanilla.

through the developer console. They're never meant to be used by the consumer, that's why they're usually not listed.

[67452ae335206voodoo47]

so humping the wall ok, everything else not. still not buying.

[67452ae335584Marvin]

In general, one method takes skill (finding the exploit and actually performing it) whereas the other does not. That's why it's still accepted as a speedrun, only in a different category, same as tool-assisted, single-segment and so on. There are about half a dozen speedruns for Mario64 with various completion levels but System Shock 2 is not nearly as popular, so sometimes the smallest time (which naturally requires the largest number of glitches and exploits) is the only one of significance.

[67452ae335707Vegoraptor]

You know, maybe we should expand this discussion onto the broader masses. Anyone willing to try a 00:00:03 run and surf the impending wave of haters?