SCP Beta 4 Issue Reporting

[667c6c8ca5f2csarge945]

Awesome. I have a question about SCP that isn't relevant to this thread, but I will ask it anyway...

So, are there any plans to release the balance ideas from ADAoB in a separate (compatible) mod? It was the one mod that finally made the useless psychic skills (and some of the heavy/exotic weapons) actually useful. It's really awesome playing a fun playstyle that isn't naturally gimped

[667c6c8ca60e1voodoo47]

I don't remember any tweaks to psi disciplines happening in ADaoB, the fusion cannon has been boosted in SCP, same goes for worm weapons, so the only thing you could be missing is the lowered requirements for the rifles. do you really need that in your life?

[667c6c8ca6446sarge945]

I don't remember any tweaks to psi disciplines happening in ADaoB, the fusion cannon has been boosted in SCP, same goes for exotic weapons, so the only thing you could be missing is the lowered requirements for the rifles. do you really need that in your life?

The rifle is fine. If anything, the AR is probably a little OP.

I could swear ADaoB had some psi changes. Maybe I am misremembering.

Either way, any plans to change the literally useless psi skills (remote electron tampering and neuro-reflex dampening come to mind)? I know this isn't really a "Rebalance" mod, but I think psi does need some love. Especially since the bugfix for cancelling out protocol droid explosions is a pretty significant nerf to Localized Pyro. Does it still affect units while you're invisible for "free" damage, or has that been changed/removed in SCP?

Anyway I guess I have annoyed you enough in this thread already. I actually kinda feel bad about it so I will stop asking questions for a while.

[667c6c8ca6590voodoo47]

"yes, probably" on the psi stuff rebalance, but it's a can of worms we are not looking forward to open. also, AR has been nerfed a long time ago.

and I don't find regular questions annoying, so no need feel guilty or whatever - though I will split the conversation and merge it into the SCP dev topic if you plan to continue, as I like to keep the mods subforum relatively technical discussions free.

[667c6c8ca66ffKolya]

oh boy oh boy could it spawn a hundred basketballs at once?
Or suddenly fill up the chamber with Many flesh?

[667c6c8ca6d83sarge945]

"yes, probably" on the psi stuff rebalance, but it's a can of worms we are not looking forward to open.

Awesome, looking forward to it!

though I will split the conversation and merge it into the SCP dev topic if you plan to continue, as I like to keep the mods subforum relatively technical discussions free.

Yeah it probably belongs there.

oh boy oh boy could it spawn a hundred basketballs at once?
Or suddenly fill up the chamber with Many flesh?

Asking the REAL questions!

I wish it would spawn 100 lego hybrids at once!
There used to be an old thread somewhere talking about what happens when you don't patch the game properly - and the first hybrid in hydro2 becomes a mess of polygons that instantly crashes the game when you look at it. It was colloquially called the Lego Hybrid

[667c6c8ca6ea9voodoo47]

pretty sure that can only happen if you go around merging mods manually or something like that (basically killing the .cal files of the models).

[667c6c8ca7203sarge945]

pretty sure that can only happen if you go around merging mods manually or something like that (basically killing the .cal files of the models).

It used to happen because of hydro2.dif, which for some reason completely wrecked that hybrid. I am pretty sure now it is all handled by SS2Tool or the mod manager?

Heres the original thread from a while back

https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=67.msg3386#msg3386

But now we are talking about the other thread this was moved from again. Ugh, I must be a moderation nightmare!

[667c6c8ca735cvoodoo47]

yeah, difs have been taken out of the equation long time ago, as they indeed were nothing but trouble.

but no idea how a diff can mess up an AI model that much off the top of my head (and no sense in investigating at this point), all I can say is that I'm pretty sure the Randomiser mod must play a role, as no AI model mods have had such issues at that place even under oldDark afaik.

[667c6c8ca753fsarge945]

EDIT: This was originally in the Repairman mod, for context:

Fixing repair by making it more useful like this is good, and I really like this mod. However, it begs the question: Will repair still be mostly useless in SCP without this mod?

I think a more SCP-appropriate way to fix the skill is to make a lot more things jammed/broken to start off with.

For example, the first BrawnBoost could be broken, as could the vast majority of replicators and maybe even some QBRMs. All this fits with the lore and would increase the purpose of the skill as it would give actual tangible benefits, the same way the first shotguns and laser pistol give a tangible boost to anyone who levels repair early. I can think of some important things later on (maybe even some doors or keypads) that would make the skill immensely useful if they started out broken and needed 4-5 repair to fix, thus allowing repair to be useful in accessing optional areas, similar to hacking.

Adding in broken implants especially could be a good way to make repair actually useful without having to add in a bunch more mechanics (even though they would start broken, they wouldnt have durability or anything).

I guess it still counts as "gameplay changes", but they are small and fit with the rest of the game, and I guess count more as "balance" than anything.

[667c6c8ca7a3bThiefsieFool]

I dunno, I always felt that adding more broken stuff is a cop out, making it so Repair is just another type of codebreaking skill like Hack that breaks open locks.

The real solution is for there to be more stuff to truly repair or return to an earlier state, i.e more stuff that breaks down where you can see it break down, so it's not just another type of hack.
This is why I added turret "resurrection" and medbed key removal in my mod long ago instead of more pre-broken objects, and recently added damaged rechargers on some decks which burn out after you use them once, so you can see them breaking and you actually get to repair them to their original state rather than just unlocking their use with a pseudo-hack effect.
More stuff like this could be added in theory without too much complication, and would be pretty nice at making Repair stand out without force-buffing it by adding Repair doors to the game.

Ultimately it's all just about making it so you can partially predict what a skill will do, if Hack and Repair mostly have their respective locked "doors" to unlock with unknown rewards behind them then there's nothing for you to predict besides picking one skill and hoping for the best that what you picked has the best rewards behind the locked doors, and then memorizing which skill had the best rewards for the next run.

 

[667c6c8ca808esarge945]

I dunno, I always felt that adding more broken stuff is a cop out, making it so Repair is just another type of codebreaking skill like Hack that breaks open locks.

The real solution is for there to be more stuff to truly repair or return to an earlier state, i.e more stuff that breaks down where you can see it break down, so it's not just another type of hack.
This is why I added turret "resurrection" and medbed key removal in my mod long ago instead of more pre-broken objects, and recently added damaged rechargers on some decks which burn out after you use them once, so you can see them breaking and you actually get to repair them to their original state rather than just unlocking their use with a pseudo-hack effect.
More stuff like this could be added in theory without too much complication, and would be pretty nice at making Repair stand out without force-buffing it by adding Repair doors to the game.

Ultimately it's all just about making it so you can partially predict what a skill will do, if Hack and Repair mostly have their respective locked "doors" to unlock with unknown rewards behind them then there's nothing for you to predict besides picking one skill and hoping for the best that what you picked has the best rewards behind the locked doors, and then memorizing which skill had the best rewards for the next run.

Yeah that makes sense. The original thing that came to mind was broken implants, but the doors thing sort of came up as I was typing. The original inspiration for that was Lockpicking vs Electronics in Deus Ex, which are both unlocking mechanics, and it works pretty well over there. But I guess having broken machines/items in strategic places is a much better way to buff the skill

Having some very convenient medbeds or charging stations (or QBRMs) break could make the skill immensely useful if they are in strategic places. Imagine having no repair skill, 1 auto-repair tool, a broken medbed, and a gun on 1 condition with 5 HP. Do you fix the bed, or do you fix your gun? DECISIONS. I think that's what the original devs were going for, but never really went anywhere significant with it.

I reckon the reason there are so many wrenches in the game is because I think they were originally going to make wrenches breakable as well, leaving you totally defenseless if everything you have breaks. Kinda cool, and would make repair useful, but I also see why they would have removed it.

I guess having broken charging stations or machines etc makes a lot more sense than "Repair 4 needed to open this door"

[667c6c8ca8282ThiefsieFool]

Glad you see it my way, also I didn't mean doors specifically to target your ideas, but more in the general sense, where a door stops you from walking to a reward, could be a locked container or something, same deal.
Complete medbeds and QBRMs in dangerous or frequented areas that break down after 1-2 uses would indeed be pretty great at making the skill feel useful in a natural way.

There was another thing I encountered in recent game Prey, where you could find pre-broken electrical junctions which would zap you in a pretty annoying way unless you fixed them, but you could also create them yourself by fighting too recklessly in an area and damaging normal junctions, which added a lot to making that game's Repair feel like Repair and not just another lock-breaker.

edit: also yeah, melee weapons used to break in ss2, there's broken icon images for some of them like the shard, I know that Warren Spector at least really hates the idea of melee weapons breaking down so you're left without a last resort, it's what he disliked about DX3 - no melee weapons at all and everything uses ammo/energy

[667c6c8ca882esarge945]

edit: also yeah, melee weapons used to break in ss2, there's broken icon images for some of them like the shard, I know that Warren Spector at least really hates the idea of melee weapons breaking down so you're left without a last resort, it's what he disliked about DX3 - no melee weapons at all and everything uses ammo/energy

Wow, that's interesting!

Complete medbeds and QBRMs in dangerous or frequented areas that break down after 1-2 uses would indeed be pretty great at making the skill feel useful in a natural way.

Agreed. They don't even have to be complete. You know the medbed in the security room in engineering? If that was broken AND incomplete I'd still repair it, since it's basically the perfect medbed placement (I don't use QBRMs so it's basically my only way of getting back when I am damaged)

[667c6c8ca8ac2voodoo47]

a few broken items have been scattered around, but yeah, no significant changes to the Repair skill are planned (as they would change the game mechanics, something we are trying to avoid), so without mods like the Repairman, the Repair skill will remain rather useless.

but something like a small condition boost to the repaired weapon at higher levels of the Repair skill could maybe make it in (basically, if having repair 3, a broken gun would be repaired to condition 3 instead of 2, if having repair 6 it would repair to 5 or something along those lines - basically, you would be able to emulate low level maintenance with high level repair).


//double checked, and the game actually sort of already does something similar - when you repair a weapon using the skill, its condition is boosted by 1, so you sort of can keep your guns working only on the repair skill alone. so yeah, making the amount of the boost dependent on your Repair skill even in the current, non-enhanced version of SCP probably should still be ok, I think.

funnily enough, the auto-repair unit actually does no repair at all, it just unlocks the target device from the broken state.

[667c6c8ca8e81sarge945]

a few broken items have been scattered around, but yeah, no significant changes to the Repair skill are planned (as they would change the game mechanics, something we are trying to avoid), so without mods like the Repairman, the Repair skill will remain rather useless.

but something like a small condition boost to the repaired weapon at higher levels of the Repair skill could maybe make it in (basically, if having repair 3, a broken gun would be repaired to condition 3 instead of 2, if having repair 6 it would repair to 5 or something along those lines - basically, you would be able to emulate low level maintenance with high level repair).

Sounds like a good idea. What if degradation rate was tied to repair instead of maintain? Maintain is already a really really good skill.

Just throwing stuff out there. But your repair idea is cool and makes sense - not only can you fix guns, but you can fix them well and make them less likely to break immediately. Taking Repair and Maintenance would be a powerful combination.

It's a shame though, having broken beds etc would have been awesome.

[667c6c8ca8fc7voodoo47]

degradation rate isn't tied to anything, it just is there - various weapons degrade at various rates.

no idea what do you mean by the broken beds.

[667c6c8ca90ffThiefsieFool]

Repair fixing weapons more at higher skill sounds good to me, it should be doable with scripts.

I assume he means either having pre-broken complete med beds in the game that can be fixed with Repair, or ones that are complete and working but break after a few uses and then need to be fixed, I'm more partial to the latter obviously since it's more repair-like.

[667c6c8ca9698sarge945]

degradation rate isn't tied to anything, it just is there - various weapons degrade at various rates.

How odd! I had heard somewhere that your maintenance skill determined the speed at which all weapons degrade. Having just checked up on that, it seems you're right. I don't know where that info came from (probably a lets-player). Disregard what I said about it.

That said, it's I guess still an interesting idea, which may or may not have some use to make repair more useful. I don't know how technically possible it would be though.

no idea what do you mean by the broken beds.

This is what I mean

I assume he means either having pre-broken complete med beds in the game that can be fixed with Repair, or ones that are complete and working but break after a few uses and then need to be fixed, I'm more partial to the latter obviously since it's more repair-like.

Basically, the stuff we were just talking about (broken machines after 1-2 uses in previous posts) was a cool idea, but like you said it's too big a change and it's your mod. I was just saying I was a little sad because it sounded really cool, but I respect your decision to not go with it. Might be a cool idea for an SCP-Extension or the Repairman mod though.


One more thing, in the vanilla game, there are various "unbreakable" weapons that will degrade completely but will never break, such as the EMP Rifle in the MedSci armoury. I don't know if these are a glitch, or intended. Making them actually able to break would definitely help out the repair skill, but I am not sure if it would change the game too much.

[667c6c8ca9b10voodoo47]

in the vanilla game, there are various "unbreakable" weapons

this has been fixed everywhere, you won't be seeing those unless you are running a (raw ND) manually patched cd version. however, some pre-placed weapons have slightly different degrade rates and kickback - this has been left in, so if you experiment a little, you can find a gun that handles slightly better than the rest in its class.

[667c6c8ca9debsarge945]

this has been fixed everywhere, you won't be seeing those unless you are running a (raw ND) manually patched cd version. however, some pre-placed weapons have slightly different degrade rates and kickback - this has been left in, so if you experiment a little, you can find a gun that handles slightly better than the rest in its class.

Very interesting! I think I have just got lucky with some weapons not breaking.

Fantastic work on Beta 4 by the way, it's running really well so far and I haven't noticed any real glaring bugs!

[667c6c8caa295ZylonBane]

I reckon the reason there are so many wrenches in the game is because I think they were originally going to make wrenches breakable as well, leaving you totally defenseless if everything you have breaks.

Or, y'know, it would be ridiculous for a gigantic starship to have exactly one wrench.

Even so, there's only like four wrenches in the entire game.

[667c6c8caa410System]

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[667c6c8caa53bvoodoo47]

see, you can do it if you put your mind into it - a screenshot of proper size with minimap active, and almost half of a description. maybe even log it into the tracker like a big boy next time.