SCP Beta 4 Issue Reporting

[6742f81bc8f6asarge945]

EDIT: My original response turned out pointless and already answered. Thats what I get for responding before finishing the thread. So I will just say this...

Yeah the fusion cannon is weird. It feels like it should be an ultra-damaging but wasteful death cannon. But it's an efficient but low damage utility weapon instead. The design is really weird.

Personally, as long as Standard is the most versatile weapon type, and the different ammo types give it enough utility to deal with everything, I don't see much reason to invest in anything else anyway, other than for fun, despite the numerous attempts to balance it. Even if it's perfectly balanced in relation to every other weapon type, being able to reliably deal with everything in the game with a single, reliable weapon is just far too utilitarian to pass up.

[6742f81bc927dRocketMan]

That's exactly why I avoid standard now.  It's too run-of-the-mill and flexible.  Far more fun trying not to die while cycling between 5 or 6 other weapons that can only be used on 1 or 2 things.

[6742f81bc95cbvoodoo47]

Voodoo:  ???

well, saying the SFG is (one of) the best weapons, the grenade launcher is bad, and the fusion cannon is good pretty much is the opposite of what is going on. SFG cannot kill anything so it's quite useless. grenade launcher, while costly to operate, can cause absolute carnage no matter the target. fusion cannon is (still) kind of mediocre.

anyway, quite a bit of hammering on the fusion cannon in beta5, hopefully making it more rounded.

[6742f81bc971aRocketMan]

Technically the sfg isn't a weapon at all but a "device".  Still it's the only "device" in the game that's guaranteed to prolong your life long enough to deal with any threat.  The fact that someone could drop you randomly into any part of the game with an SFG and a wrench and you could dispatch any enemy that ambushes you, speaks to its utility.

It is possible that your contradictory views on this are due to you having a vastly different play style than me, which only indicates that the game is good.

[6742f81bc9842sarge945]

I have noticed that the email you get concerning storage utility 4 in engineering is one you only get if you go the wrong way (ironically). If you follow an optimal path, you will miss the trigger as it's in a hallway near storage utility 5.

Would it be worth moving it or adding a second trigger so that if you reach storage utility 4 without getting the email, then it gives you the email?

[6742f81bc9939voodoo47]

thought about it, but no, this is not supposed to be convenient. you either get lucky (going the wrong way first), or not.

[6742f81bc9b88sarge945]

I feel like either SCP or ss2tool should make an archetype change to improve mod compatibility going forward. It would probably be better as a change in ss2tool so that mods don't require SCP as much, but since SCP is already a gamesys mod I am posting it here since it makes more sense here.

While making my updated version of the Coloured Laser Rapiers mod, I ran into an issue where other mods (in this case the RSD mod) were already using all 4 script slots on the rapier, and since dont inherit was set to TRUE (so that it doesn't get the EnergyWeapon script from it's parent), I couldn't simply use a metaprop.

I feel like this is going to become more and more of an issue going forward as more mods are released and effectively have to fight over the existing script slots on certain items.

I feel that if effort was made to free up as many items as possible, like in the case of the rapier moving the EnergyWeapons script to a metaprop instead and attaching it only to the energy weapons that can actually be charged, it would go a long way to improving mod compatibility in general going forward. The Psi Amp also has the same problem. Then, if mod authors are encouraged to use metaproperties (especially for complex mods that use multiple script slots), we might run into the "fighting over script slots" issue a lot less. I feel the ideal state would be one where practically every object in the game has script inheritance turned on and can therefore use scripts from metaproperties.

Obviously metaproperties are not a panacea, and there will always be mod conflicts in some way or another, and I am a relatively new dark modder so probably don't fully understand the ramifications of something like this, but I thought I would mention this anyway.

[6742f81bc9d6evoodoo47]

well what do you know, having don't inherit set to true on the archetype scripts will indeed block all metaprop scrips from being applied.

you will have top work around it in some way - welcome to Dark modding, where there are no free lunches, and if there are then it's broken glass with a side dish of barbed wire. wouldn't want it any other way.

anyway yeah, there isn't an infinite number of scripts that can be placed onto an archetype (metaprops or not), so we will inevitably have mods incompatible with one another at some point. you can either make it work, or not.

[6742f81bc9f01sarge945]

I get that, but surely allowing inheritance on more objects would at least help the situation?

[6742f81bca023voodoo47]

ZB already optimized the scripts iirc, so I'm guessing this is what it is. should everything fail, you can always just add "incompatible with RSD" to the mod description.

or maybe ask RSD to free up a slot for you.

[6742f81bca176sarge945]

He did free up a slot, but now the Rapier has 4 assigned between the 2 mods.

I dunno, I guess it would just help being more extensible, that's all. It seems to me like the only reason the Rapier has dont inherit set to true is because of the EnergyWeapon script, which could very easily be added to weapons via a metaprop, and fix this problem for good.

[6742f81bca48fvoodoo47]

2 mods modifying the same archetype and not breaking anything is pretty much as good as it gets anyway.

the only reason the Rapier has dont inherit set to true is because of the EnergyWeapon script, which could very easily be added to weapons via a metaprop

yes, and you can dml do this. go for it.

[6742f81bca81fsarge945]

yes, and you can dml do this. go for it.

I likely can. The issue is that then it just moves the problem. Even if I fix this issue in my mod and allow scripts to be added to the rapier (and the psi amp) via metaproperties (which isn't actually needed anymore since a script slot was opened up), any other mod that wishes to add a script and not run into the same compatibility problems will need to either implement the same fix themselves, or have a hard dependency on my mod, otherwise any metaproperties they add in their mod won't have their scripts run.

Better to have the change done in a central place so everyone can benefit from it automatically. That is exactly why I suggested it for SCP or ss2Tool.

I GUESS I could create this as a "library mod", and any other mod wanting to add scripts via metaprop would either rely on it being installed or be able to implement it themselves by just copying the DML, but it's still not a great solution as it creates a lot of unnecessary extra work for everybody.

[6742f81bca9ecvoodoo47]

yeah, no matter what anyone does, it will be just moving the problem around. so my recommendation would be - if your mod works with the RSD stuff now, leave it like that. and should a third rapier modder pop up in the future - well, we'll see, but as mentioned, you probably wouldn't be cramming more than two mods onto one archetype anyway.

basically the only thing anyone creating a new mod can do is check compatibility with popular mods, see what can/cannot be done, and then decide (for example, not being compatible with Arcaniac models is not a big deal, but if you have conflicts with SCP, then you'll probably have a bad day. or rather, an almost nobody is going to download the mod day).

[6742f81bcac0fsarge945]

Well, if it was fixed on the SS2tool end, then at least virtually nobody would ever have to contend with it again other than people playing a CD copy. It would be "fixed" at that point, I guess, since gamesys mods don't have the same issue anyway (they can just add new archetypes or move things around without worrying about compatibility) and all other DML mods tend to be run against either SCP or the ss2tool version of the game.

But, since RSD is using 3 script slots on the rapier, I would recommend @RoSoDude implement the energy change, and then move his scripts onto a metaprop. It should free up slots for others to use.

Our compatibility is largely sorted at this point, but if literally anyone else ever creates a rapier mod involving a script, then we're in trouble again if anyone wants to use the 3 mods side by side.

Multiple mods removing the EnergyWeapon script and adding it in a new metaprop to the other energy weapons shouldn't be an issue, right? Does Dark even run the same script twice if it's attached more than once on an object? I hope that multiple additions of the EnergyWeapons script (like if say multiple mods "fixed" the issue) wouldn't do things like double energy drain.

[6742f81bcae2dvoodoo47]

Dark is smart enough to not do duplication as long as the dml code is proper, so this (2 mods potentially doing cleanup on the archetypes) shouldn't be an issue.

anyway, I don't think I want to dip my toes into converting all archetypes that have not inherit ticked on assigned scripts into using metaprops, this has potential to break things if nothing else, as having the script on a metaprop assigned to the archetype is not quite the same as having it on the archetype itself.

again, if your compatibility issues with RSD are resolved then lets leave this alone, once that hypothetical next person comes around we'll think about it some more. we literally did the same thing when we were solving Pistol Hybrid and RDS compatibility (RSD switching to a metaprop because he could, I could not, so the hybrid slots are still full with Pistol Hybrid active, anyone wanting to mod the hybrid on top of that is out of luck. too bad).

[6742f81bcaf29sarge945]

Fair enough

[6742f81bcb15dZylonBane]

I've always disliked the design of the Ops mess hall bathrooms. The toilet stalls are set up so that even people just walking in to wash their hands have to lock eyes with anyone sitting on that toilet. And it's a nonstandard design, not used anywhere else on the ship. The whole thing feels weirdly out of step with SS2's design aesthetic.

So I'm kind of tempted to trash the row of toilet stalls, even though it's a visually distinctive bit of architecture, and replace it with a more standard, less humiliating layout.

[6742f81bcb240RocketMan]

They just need doors.  I've been in bathrooms like this (with doors).

[6742f81bcb32cvoodoo47]

I see no reason to not polish them now that ops3 is unstripped.

[6742f81bcb5faZylonBane]

They just need doors.  I've been in bathrooms like this (with doors).

They would need swinging doors, which don't exist anywhere in the entire game (other than the two little hatches).

[6742f81bcb8e4RoSoDude]

The existing bathroom design is a bit odd, but I hope any alterations don't include any substantive change to the egg traps and hybrid ambush. The existing geometry with the central sink pillar makes for good sightlines, cover, approaches etc.

[6742f81bcba44ZylonBane]

It's almost as if that area was designed for urinals, but then their prop modelers were like, "Nope, you get toilets."

Well, maybe just adding some frames sticking out at the ends of the separator walls would be enough to create the impression that there used to be doors here.

[6742f81bcbb3cvoodoo47]

I wouldn't be too afraid to rework them into something human beings would actually use.