SCP Beta 4 Issue Reporting

[67436fd78be9fZylonBane]

Those weird clipped steps in the Von Braun's casino always bugged me...

I do not envy anyone who has to touch this brushwork again. This was a pain in the ass to pull off with CSG.

[67436fd78c1ccsarge945]

During my cataloguing of every object (as part of the Randomiser mod), I have noticed quite a few areas where there are various objects like bottles, cigarettes etc which are set up in a way where it looks like they were intended to sit exactly where they are, but because they don't have physics controls enabled, they simply fall to the ground like every other object.

This is probably WAY too nitpicky, but I thought I would mention it, and let voodoo and ZB decide if it's worth the effort to fix any of these.

A good example is the Cigarettes on the Bonne-Chance Lounge pool table (rec2.mis object 1212). To me it looks like  the developers clearly intended to have them sit on the edge of the pool table, since they are perfectly positioned to do so. However, because they don't have any physics controls, they immediately fall through the table to the floor.

I have a whole list of objects like this. Should I add them to the document, or is it way too silly/tiny to even bother worrying about?

[67436fd78c333voodoo47]

they are probably already fixed, but yes, do add the list, maybe we've missed something.

[67436fd78c43bsarge945]

Alright. I have added object 1212. I will add more as I remember them

[67436fd78c6b7voodoo47]

rec2;
- Cigs 1212 fall through the pool table. //fixed

there is no such thing as a problem being too insignificant to be fixed.

[67436fd78c7e0sarge945]

I added 2 more. These ones are a bit more subjective, since they aren't in EXACT positions, but the original mappers bothered to put them upright, and they clip through things when they lie down.

Sorry for being so pedantic.

[67436fd78c903ZylonBane]

Upright is the default spawn orientation of cigarette packs.

[67436fd78cb76sarge945]

ZylonBane
Good to know.

The only cigarettes I mentioned are the ones on the pool table. All the other objects are alcohol bottles. Do they also spawn upright?

[67436fd78cf62RocketMan]

Those weird clipped steps in the Von Braun's casino always bugged me...

I do not envy anyone who has to touch this brushwork again. This was a pain in the ass to pull off with CSG.

Sorry, late to the game here but... why was this changed?

[67436fd78d292ZylonBane]

The only cigarettes I mentioned are the ones on the pool table. All the other objects are alcohol bottles. Do they also spawn upright?

Upright is the default spawn orientation for all food and beverage items.

Sorry, late to the game here but... why was this changed?

Are you really going to make me explain what stairs are?

[67436fd78d384RocketMan]

I hope not, since that wasn't my question.  Was there something wrong with the previous stairs?

[67436fd78d4dePacmikey]

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[67436fd78d670ZylonBane]

Exactly. As most people know, properly designed steps/stairs place each step with consistent height and spacing. But the vanilla casino steps have those weird double-height steps on the sides. It looks utterly bizarre and nonsensical to anyone who takes even a moment to consider them as something existing in the real world. Any normal human walking down such steps along the sides would certainly stumble badly.

The only reason the original mapper built them that way is because building them "properly" requires brushwork that cuts into the surrounding terrain, requiring even more brushwork to patch the holes. So they took the easy path.

[67436fd78d842RocketMan]

Trying to rationalize why they likely did what they did is irrelevant.  Even if it comes from the horse's mouth, we're not in the business of re-interpreting a 20 something year old product that is firmly cemented in peoples' heads (unless it's in its own discrete mod).  Talking about architecture and safety code considerations is also silly.  Save that for real life.  Unless the player gets stuck on the stairs during play, or the textures are upside down, or the brushwork is causing sound propagation issues, you're just changing something because it irks you, and this is not the right reason to change something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying SS2 has to remain exactly as it was on the store shelf.  But this is a well organized modding community with a place for everything.  SCP has grown to gargantuan proportions and it's no longer a trivial matter of either using it or not using it.  Pretty much everybody who plays this game is using it.  Therefore the responsibility you have to stick to your mandate grows with each passing day.  If you want to change the way the stairs look, make a "better looking stairs" mod.

[67436fd78d94fPacmikey]

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[67436fd78dba9RocketMan]

I understand what you're saying but you're countering an argument I didn't make.  I'm not saying the stairs should remain "pure" for purist reasons.  I'm also not saying that the design is smart and sensible.  I'm saying that SCP is a huge mod that 99% of users are now stuck with because it has millions of welcomed bug fixes in it that help the player feel that immersion you're talking about.  Now start changing this here and that over there because, "it doesn't make sense" or "looks ugly" and you're stepping into a gray area where people now start to resent using SCP because not everyone can objectively agree on matters of design or aesthetic.  Case in point, I think the new stairs look like a mess of ugly chevrons that are all misaligned (due to perspective effects).  I thought the old one was clever looking and pleasing to the eye.  I wanted to avoid giving my opinion because it has nothing to do with my post but now I have to, in order to prove that not everybody is going to want these sorts of changes folded in with a million others that most everybody could get on board with.  That's why we have engineering and mod sub-forums.  Those are where you test the waters with new or improved designs for things and you package them up to give people as much choice as is reasonable. 

Regarding standards, those mods you mentioned are still... mods.  They are not standards.  If they were, you wouldn't be able to play the game without them.  Somebody out there (probably underestimating here) is playing SS2 almost vanilla with no enhancements because they like it that way, and they should be able to do that.  That's why mods are not "standards".  The closest thing you might get to what you're describing is a patch but patches are usually released by the author of the product and usually shortly after the game's release, with mostly bug fixes... usually.

[67436fd78dcd6voodoo47]

fixing bad/weird brushwork definitely is within scope. whoever does not agree, still has the option to play vanilla.

[67436fd78de3cRocketMan]

Sorry man but you should know better than to say that.  Nobody is going to make such a trivial binary choice due to some stairs, or some stairs + a toilet or some stairs + a toilet + whatever, but players who didn't ask for those things to be changed are going to be going backwards in terms of enjoying the game.  AND they're going to be going backwards if they don't use the mod.  So they're screwed either way.  This is easily avoidable.

...and it's neither bad nor weird brushwork.  Bad is just wrong and weird is highly subjective.  In fact I remember you two giving shit to a certain someone who doesn't come here anymore for constantly requesting changes to things because they were weird or didn't make sense.  You mostly rejected those requests and resented the feedback.

[67436fd78df17Pacmikey]

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[67436fd78e022RocketMan]

No, I think all the points and counter points have been made.  I just hope it wasn't for nothing.

[67436fd78e1f4voodoo47]

in the end, whoever is maintaining the patch/mod will have to decide (and yes, we are aware that a guy who will look at some SCP change and go "this is too much, I'm out" will always exist. it's impossible to please everyone).

those stairs definitely are a good fix, imho. or rather, the chances of someone saying "the casino stairs are now even, the game is ruined, I'm out" are pretty low, I would say. also, hundreds, if not thousands of similar little fixes that smooth out rough edges have already been applied everywhere, so those stairs are nothing special/out of ordinary (for example, the stairs to the pleasure units have been made even as well, so long ago that I don't even remember which beta was it. no complaints so far).

also, we actually do have a build that is specifically tailored for people who want fixes, but not brushwork fixes available - it's the tool, you will get all the fixes that can be applied without touching the levels. so GOG/steam vanilla, if you want more then apply the tool, if you want everything then it's SCP time. I'd say we have some 99.99% of the market covered.

[67436fd78e77dZylonBane]

Case in point, I think the new stairs look like a mess of ugly chevrons that are all misaligned (due to perspective effects).  I thought the old one was clever looking and pleasing to the eye.

They are, in fact, perfectly aligned. Each step is exactly the same shape and dimensions, and they are all spaced the exact same distance from each other, along all axes.

Anyway, if you think a staircase design that would literally never exist in real life looks pleasing to the eye, that's a "you" problem. It sounds like you're having a purely OCD "it's different so I don't like it" reaction, just like this guy. Then you tried to rationalize this dislike by claiming we shouldn't be changing any level architecture just so it makes more sense, when you know perfectly well that we've been doing this for as long as SCP has existed. We've even added entire rooms that didn't exist in the original. I've never heard you complaining about those.

...giving shit to a certain someone who doesn't come here anymore for constantly requesting changes to things because they were weird or didn't make sense.

Wrong. He almost never requested changes to things that didn't make sense. He demanded changing things to how he personally would have done them.

[67436fd78e8a2Pacmikey]

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[67436fd78ea16RocketMan]

Beg your pardon?