SCP Beta 4 Issue Reporting

[67449a63b34c0ZylonBane]

Beta 5 has reverted all the ADaOB grenade changes (fingers crossed), so propagating scaled damage is back to being desired behavior.

[67449a63b38b5sarge945]

It probably makes sense to change the level 1 mod to 10% for consistency sake

[67449a63b3ab1voodoo47]

yes, but then we will have to redo the entire grenade balance from scratch, because currently, once you get the first modification going, they do what one would expect - wipe all the enemies off the face of the earth. if we just fix the modifier, you suddenly need 3 emp grenades for the big droids, making the weapon next to useless. so this is an annoying situation - we can't just fix the bug and call it good, as the entire system hangs on that bug being there.

so basically, boost the base grenade damage to achieve similar damage output at level 2 modification.

[67449a63b3bc8sarge945]

A tier 1 weapon that you can literally start the game with takes 3 shots of a moderately common ammo type to down a midgame enemy with 1 skill point?

The horror!

[67449a63b3e3dvoodoo47]

considering the costs of grenades, they should be doing really nice damage no matter the circumstances. here is a realtime test on a rumbler;

old SCPb5 balance:

heavy weapons 1, modification level 0
7x disruption grenade (close to 6), 8x incendiary grenade (close to 7), 11 standard grenades

heavy weapons 1, modification level 2
3x disruption grenade, 4x incendiary grenade (close to 3), 5 standard grenades

heavy weapons 6, modification level 0
4x disruption grenade, 5x incendiary grenade (close to 4), 7 standard grenades (close to 6)

heavy weapons 6, modification level 2
2x disruption grenade, 2x incendiary grenade, 3 standard grenades

new balance with the script fixed:

heavy weapons 1, modification level 2
5x disruption grenade, 6x incendiary grenade, 9 standard grenades

heavy weapons 6, modification level 2
3x disruption grenade, 4x incendiary grenade, 5 standard grenades

ok, if I need to max out everything and still need 3 disruption or 4 incendiary grenades to take down a single rumbler, then screw that, I'm taking a pistol or shotgun with anti-flesh rounds and killing that thing 2x faster, 10x safer, and for a fraction of cost (nanites AND cms).

see the problem?


though I now agree this should be fixed somehow before b5 goes public - the grenades shouldn't suck that hard when the launcher is unmodified (currently they do, the launcher is worthless at level 0, needing 2 standard grenades to kill a shotgun hybrid is laughable).

my current proposal is to use the fixed script, and boost the base damage to get almost identical damage output when fully modified. we can end up with a slight nerf when maxed out, but it's ok as long as it's just slight.

but slashing everything to half and call it good is not a good idea.

[67449a63b42bbNameless Voice]

Fun Fact: The first level of modification to the grenade launcher increases grenade damage by 200%. The second level only increases damage by 14%.

Just to be annoyingly pedantic, it increases the damage to 200% (doubling it), not by 200% (tripling it.)


And, yes, it is why ADaOB disabled damage scaling on grenades.

[67449a63b4b9cRoSoDude]

considering the costs of grenades, they should be doing really nice damage no matter the circumstances. here is a realtime test on a rumbler;ok, if I need to max out everything and still need 3 disruption or 4 incendiary grenades to take down a single rumbler, then screw that, I'm taking a pistol or shotgun with anti-flesh rounds and killing that thing 2x faster, 10x safer, and for a fraction of cost (nanites AND cms).

see the problem?


though I now agree this should be fixed somehow before b5 goes public - the grenades shouldn't suck that hard when the launcher is unmodified (currently they do, the launcher is worthless at level 0, needing 2 standard grenades to kill a shotgun hybrid is laughable).

my current proposal is to use the fixed script, and boost the base damage to get almost identical damage output when fully modified. we can end up with a slight nerf when maxed out, but it's ok as long as it's just slight.

but slashing everything to half and call it good is not a good idea.

There is still no problem. You said the nanite cost is higher for the grenades, but this is simply untrue. Comparing base damages only (if we assume modification levels provide the same +10/14% bonuses):

Vanilla/SCPb5 damage numbers with SCP x3 multiplier on anti-personnel rounds
Pistol (Standard skill 1, mod level 0, standard bullets) kills a Rumbler in 55 shots. 6 standard bullets cost 60 nanites in an unhacked replicator, so this equals 550 nanites.
Pistol (Standard skill 1, mod level 0, anti-personnel bullets) kills a Rumbler in 18.33 shots. 6 anti-personnel bullets cost 120 nanites in an unhacked replicator, so this equals 367 nanites.
Grenade Launcher (Heavy skill 1, mod level 0, frag grenades) kills a Rumbler in 11 shots. 3 frag grenades cost 100 nanites in an unhacked replicator, so this equals 367 nanites.
Grenade Launcher (Heavy skill 1, mod level 0, incendiary grenades) kills a Rumbler in 7.33 shots. 3 incendiary grenades cost 130 nanites in an unhacked replicator, so this equals 318 nanites.

No matter how you slice it, the Grenade Launcher gives you a better bang for your buck. Considering firing rates and reload times, it also takes less time to fire off 11 grenades (13 seconds) than 55 bullets (38 seconds). The optimal damage types are a little closer at 8 grenades (10 seconds) or 19 bullets (12 seconds). If you had to buff anything, make incendiary grenade base damage higher (15->20, kills Rumbler in 5.5 shots at base, costs 284 nanites, takes 6 seconds), but don't buff frag grenades out of a misguided notion that the original damage modification level was even remotely balanced.

Also, Shotgun hybrids go from 24HP to 20HP after a single base damage frag grenade, this is hardly an issue. With any damage bonuses from skill, mods, O/S, or research, it's almost guaranteed to be a one hit kill.

[67449a63b4ceeZylonBane]

A not-insignificant, but less quantifiable, demerit to grenades is the very real chance of hurting yourself when using them. You need distance from the target to use them ideally, unlike the simpler projectile weapons that work just as well in close quarters. So I'd say that alone deserves a buff in the damage department.

[67449a63b4e9avoodoo47]

replicator cost perhaps, but that doesn't account for ammo you can find. grenades are much rarer than bullets. anyway, might have overexaggerated when I said "fraction of cost" I'll give you that.

either way, "we can't slash the modded grenade launcher's damage output by half by fixing the modify script and ship" still stands.


//also what ZB said. to make it short - if I need 4 incendiary/disruption grenades to take down a rumbler at heavy 6 with a fully modified gun, then the launcher is dead to me, as simple as that.

//adding ammo counts from the end of my last run, using mostly melee, laspistol and fusion cannon, so grenades untouched and bullets barely touched. look just how friggin rare those grenades are - and I AM the hoarding type. excluding BotM, there are 18 disruption grenades in the entire game - they would barely be legal to drink. incendiary and emp could technically run for president, so that's something I guess.
[ammo.png expired]

[67449a63b5001voodoo47]

..so there is an ecology in BotM set up to do some (mild) spawning around the level to keep the player busy, business as usual. it however never really spawns anything, as way too many pre-placed AIs are set to be a part of it. this means it will start to work only after you clear the level pretty much completely.

fixing this is trivial, it would however make BotM a bit more difficult. so lets see what the public thinks.

[67449a63b5108sarge945]

The difficulty of the game somewhat falls off towards the end anyway, as players are fully equipped and have most of their skills up at that point.

[67449a63b52c0ZylonBane]

Regarding the Power Psi upgrade and how essentially useless it is, I was thinking a quick and easy upgrade (i.e. wouldn't require rewriting the entire psi power subsystem) would be to add a one-time increase to the player's maximum PSI, like how Naturally Able Tank increases the player's max HP.

But how big of a boost would make it worth the opportunity cost? PSI pool increase per level of Psi is difficulty-dependent, so this is one of those upgrades that would be more valuable the higher the difficulty.

Or maybe instead of a fixed-point boost, the max PSI could be increased by a percentage of what your max PSI would normally be at your current level. Not sure if that's possible, but it might be!

For reference, the vanilla max PSI values are:
- Easy: 106
- Normal: 65
- Hard: 51
- Impossible: 31

[67449a63b53a6voodoo47]

20 points to keep it in sync with Naturally Able (20 cms)?

[67449a63b547dZylonBane]

Eh? Why would HP and PSI be synchronized? Those are completely separate systems.

[67449a63b55c7voodoo47]

nno, it's just that Naturally Able will give you 20 cms. so if we are looking for a nice number, then 20 extra psi points would fit the bill.

[67449a63b5998Marvin]

You mean "Tank"? Naturally Able gives CMs, Tank gives HP.

[67449a63b5a84ZylonBane]

Oops, yes, that's what I meant.

[67449a63b5b69voodoo47]

10 is not enough, I think. hence, 20.

[67449a63b5d3bZylonBane]

Okay, yes, adjusting by a percentage can be done. Since NewDark adds a script message when stats are recalculated, it would be as simple as:

Code: [Select]

function OnRecalcedStats() {
if (ShockGame.HasTrait("Player", eTrait.kTraitPsionic)) {
SetProperty("PsiState", "Max Points", GetProperty("PsiState", "Max Points") * 1.2);
}
}In fact, since we now have the ability to listen for stats being recalc'd, we could do the same thing for the Tank upgrade. The original improvement to Tank was implemented before we had (easy) access to scripting, so we were forced into a compromise value that was only really "right" for Normal/Hard difficulties, but a drop in the bucket for Easy, and overpowered for Impossible. By redefining Tank as "+20% base HP", we could fix that.

So for example, with a 20% bonus, the maximum HP values would be boosted like this:
- Easy: 105 -> 126
- Normal: 60 -> 72
- Impossible: 25 -> 30

Hmm. That ends up giving a bonus of +5 on Impossible, which is the same as vanilla. That could be considered a good thing I think? Since Tank has always been considered useful for Impossible runs but useless otherwise.

But the downside of a percentage would be that players would only see the full benefit of Tank with maxed Endurance. Well, this could also be a good thing I guess, since it would reward committing to a specialized build. But the idea is to make Tank tempting, so maybe 30% would be better?

[67449a63b5e3csarge945]

I always thought setting some stat (like the Max Psi Points) would re-trigger the OnRecalcedStats message, which sounds INFINITELY fun.

[67449a63b5f83RoSoDude]

You know, making Tank give a baseline of 15% physical protection is nearly the same as giving +20% bonus HP, and is as simple as attaching a metaprop with NVtrait. Defenses stack multiplicatively (and decimal numbers on damage calculations are averaged out with RNG), so 15% physical protection is nearly synonymous with inflating your health pool by 18%.

(Yes, it is a little bit different, as increasing defense rather than health makes med hypos more efficient, while having more health is better protection against ticks floored to 1 damage, but my point is that this option was already on the table long ago)

[67449a63b64cdZylonBane]

I always thought setting some stat (like the Max Psi Points) would re-trigger the OnRecalcedStats message, which sounds INFINITELY fun.

It does not, which is why there's a script service for manually requesting stats be recalculated.

You know, making Tank give a baseline of 15% physical protection is nearly the same as giving +20% bonus HP

"Physical protection" isn't a character stat, so I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about here.

In any case, Tank is firmly defined in vanilla as "increases HP", so for SCP we're kind of limited to direct variations on that.

[67449a63b66a1Nameless Voice]

Would it be stupidly overpowered for Power Psi to give you a permanent +1 boost to your PSI stat, so you can get 7 unmodified PSI before implants/buffs?

[67449a63b67abvoodoo47]

would be ok in my book - I think we can safely say that we are out of the no changes to mechanics territory as far as os upgrades are concerned.