SCP Beta 4 Issue Reporting

[6744b6b82ce8eNameless Voice]

This would make it act a bit like Sharpshooter for PSI, except IIRC the damage bonus for reaching 7 PSI is significantly higher for most spells than it is for each earlier point of the stat.

[6744b6b82d036ZylonBane]

The OS upgrades are supposed to do unique things, not just upgrade a stat that there's already a system for upgrading. And that would make it one of those obnoxious upgrades that changes value depending on when you take it.

[6744b6b82d1d1voodoo47]

that is unavoidable - Naturally Able would be a good example, only has any worth if taken as the first OS upgrade.

that reminds me, Naturally Able making all upgrades a bit cheaper is still not doable?

[6744b6b82d5a6ZylonBane]

Naturally Able would be a good example, only has any worth if taken as the first OS upgrade.

Naturally Able is exactly as valuable (not to be confused with useful) at the beginning of the game as by the end. But an OS upgrade that granted a stat point would change value depending on how many stat points you'd purchased previously, since the upgrade cost increases for each level.

that reminds me, Naturally Able making all upgrades a bit cheaper is still not doable?

I don't see how that could work. Stat upgrade costs are set in the gamesys params, which AFAIK there's no script service for accessing.

[6744b6b82d739voodoo47]

20 cms mid-medsci has decent value. 20 cms at the beginning of hydro is starting to look questionable. 20 cms on rec is peanuts. the numeric value is the same. the actual value, not so much. //usefulness, ok.

too bad - I would see Naturally Able as the SS2 equivalent of FO3 Swift Learner, you basically get more bang from experience gained (cms are the experience points of the SS2 universe, so either cheaper upgrades, or receiving more modules, either way, being able to get more upgrades than usual in some way should the trait be taken).

[6744b6b82dae5Nameless Voice]

In SecMod, Naturally Able increases how many modules you get by 10% instead of giving a flat bonus.

The OS upgrades are supposed to do unique things, not just upgrade a stat that there's already a system for upgrading. And that would make it one of those obnoxious upgrades that changes value depending on when you take it.

Not really, it would be the same value, but it would be more effective the more points you actually spend on the PSI stat.
Also, increasing the maximum value of a stat beyond its normal limit is not something you can do in any other way (with the exception of indirectly, via the trait that lets you install two implants.)

[6744b6b82defcZylonBane]

Not really, it would be the same value

"Value" = cybermod opportunity cost. It would literally be more valuable the more you'd conventionally upgraded your psi stat before taking it. This would practically ensure it ended up as a late-game dump upgrade.

[6744b6b82e060Nameless Voice]

Doesn't the same logic apply to Sharpshooter?  Since you can get almost the same effect by increasing the relevant weapon skill by one point.

[6744b6b82e282ZylonBane]

No, because Sharpshooter doesn't give you a stat point, it sets a flag that the engine damage code checks. Doing something equivalent for psi powers would require rewriting the entire RootPsi script subsystem to incorporate a similar check for Power Psi, and I don't have the energy for that right now. So the only alternative would be to just give the player a psi stat point. Which would introduce the aforementioned issue of increasing the cybermod cost for the next psi stat point.

I am aware of the Armor/Drug/Implant/Psi Stats properties that can be placed on the player to boost stats, but the "PSI" slot on every one of them is already under the control of other items.
- "Armor Stats" PSI is claimed by the worm skin armor.
- "Drug Stats" PSI is claimed by the psi booster hypo.
- "Implant Stats" PSI is claimed by the PsiBoost implant.
- "Psi Stats" PSI is claimed by Recursive Psionic Amplification.

As far as I can tell, the control scripts for all these items assume they have sole ownership of the PSI sub-property, so they just set and clear it without any regard for previous values.

Actually, looking at how there are already so many ways to boost the psi stat, I'd say that adding yet another one would be kind of silly.

[6744b6b82e6b9sarge945]

Gameplay wise, sharpshooter essentially gives you 1 point in every weapon skill, but it's not a "true" point (doesn't count for requirements, etc).

That's very different from adding 1 PSI

[6744b6b82e82fNameless Voice]

Well, I was never proposing adding an actual real stat point, it was always supposed to be a buff.  Still, even if you could get around the fact that all the boost stats are already used, you'd quite easily hit the hard cap of 8 for stat points.

Maybe some other effect that makes psi powers better?  But the PSI stat already increases damage and/or duration, so what else could you do?  Decrease the psi point cost?

One thing that would be interesting would be to change the time interval for overcharge, to make the window slightly longer for high-tier powers, but I doubt we have the ability to change that.

[6744b6b82e996ZylonBane]

The psi charge times are gamesys vars, so beyond script access.

Long ago I'd had the idea to make Power Psi cast the psi effect even when you overload, but that too would require rewriting the psi subsystem.

So that brings us back to just making it increase the PSI pool, which could be done easily.

[6744b6b82edb3ThiefsieFool]

I dunno how great a psi pool increase would be, given that about the only interesting interaction is you will waste less psi points from consuming annelid psi organs, if you even look for them.

There is the possibility of buffing only the projectile-based PSI powers, similar to what Sharpshooter does, for an example on scripting this check NVStatBasedProjectile in https://github.com/Xanfre/nvscript/blob/master/NVScript/NVScript-SS2.cpp

[6744b6b82eee3voodoo47]

how about something completely insane, like having psi pull turn the AI projectiles 180°? we know that psi pull can grab them, so this probably is doable.

[6744b6b82f364ZylonBane]

I dunno how great a psi pool increase would be, given that about the only interesting interaction is you will waste less psi points from consuming annelid psi organs, if you even look for them.

On the other hand, the game itself thinks psi pool is somewhat important, since you get less of it as the difficulty increases, and more of it as you upgrade psi.

how about something completely insane, like having psi pull turn the AI projectiles 180°?

How about no.

[6744b6b82f467voodoo47]

jedi mind tricks won't work on you, huh.

[6744b6b82f568ZylonBane]

Okay, setting aside Power Psi for the moment, any objections to changing Tank from a flat HP boost to a +20% HP boost? That would fix its utility being difficulty-dependent.

[6744b6b82f67fvoodoo47]

I don't like it too much, this will nerf it where it's needed the most (and give a ridiculous boost on easy). on impossible, a +10hp boost is a no brainer, +2hp is eeh, thanks, Sharpshooter it is.

some upgrades being no brainers with certain builds is not a bad thing.

[6744b6b82f756Nameless Voice]

How about having it give a different flat value based on difficulty?

[6744b6b82f8bavoodoo47]

won't really matter. the way I see it, this is an os upgrade that is supposed to help boost hp when the player chooses a difficulty (or upgrade path) where the hp pool will be low.

so, by definition/no matter what is done, this upgrade will be useless on easy and nearly useless on normal, as there is no shortage of hp on those two difficulties. it can, however, be useful on hard, and indispensable on impossible. and it currently is - the proposed change, while looking good on paper, would just make it not very useful on hard and impossible (current tank will allow the player to actually survive a hit on impossible, with the new tank, not so much, probably).

making an os upgrade less useful is the opposite of what we want, I would say.

[6744b6b82f9f6Nameless Voice]

Still, increasing the amount on lower difficulties would at least make it slightly less useless?

e.g. 10 on Impossible, 15 on Hard / Multiplayer, 20 on Normal, 25 on Easy?

[6744b6b82fcbcMarvin]

Or 5 HP + 10%*maxHP?

[6744b6b82fde9voodoo47]

if I have a bazillion hp on easy, then bazillion +{5*3/4[20%]}/0.3 I don't care either way me bash good with lethal weapon instead.

it's like going to an all-you-can-eat buffet alone and buying two tickets. no point if you can stuff your face to bursting with just one. ain't buying the second even if it's 50% off.

[6744b6b82feddZylonBane]

If you're playing on Easy, YOU SUCK AT THE GAME. Are you forgetting that part?